Quote:It's not "B0ll0x" at all. It's a fact we replaced successful coaches who won the cup one year with Lowe the next. And that we replaced a cup winning scrum half who did not look out of place opposite Peter Sterling in the 1985 cup final.
It is DaveO in context with what I originally posted!
Yes he did replace Ford with Gregory, but only 5/6 years After taking over the club! In between we had 4/5 other SH before we were in a position to entice/Make a play for Gregory!
Which is completely and utterly irrelevant. In case you had not noticed we ARE currently in a position to entice top players. We have signed the likes of Fielden, Barrett and now Gleeson in recent seasons.
My point is we ought to be behaving in the same way now as we did then and contrary to your opinion we ARE in a position to do so. Plenty of people do not consider TL a good enough enough 7 yet we have signed him up again. It's no use saying we will sign another half back and TL will play 9 because that is pure speculation which of course is not allowed is it? I also happen to think it is unlikely to happen based on who is out of contract and what other positions need to be sorted out.
Quote:Would I be Happy if 5 years after IL took over (3 years from now) having a HB partnership as good as Gregory/Edwards with Tomkins/An>Other at 6 then Yes I would!
IF Tommy is a stop Gap to get to that Point like Gary Stevens/Mike Ford was then that's alright by me!
That's Before we know if IL is going to go for another 6 and play Tommy at 9!
Good grief. I was criticised for speculating that Smith will leave and we will have Riddell and McIllorum at 9, TL and Tomkins in the half back positions and here you are living on fantasy island. TL a stop gap? With a three year contract? He isn't a stop gap at all.
Quote:What went on before has got nothing to do with those decisions being made. Better people were available so the club went for them. No pussyfooting around. No misguided loyalty to good players and coaches but right in there for the ones to take us to the next step.
Here we go again! You almost touch on the point but choose to Ignore the points originally made to enable you to get your Agenda across, That we didn't go from Bamford to Lowe or From Pendlebury To Hanley! We took Steps to get to that Point!
We did not take any steps to go from Clarke and McInnes to Lowe. They were far more successful at this club than Noble has been and were replaced. The fact we had several coaches before them is just not relevant but in any case we had Murphy who was at the time considered another top coach.
Who we had before the decision to replace Clarke and McInnes is another huge irrelevance. It had nothing to do with that decision. In any case Noble is supposed to be a top coach so we are already at the level of employing top coaches so therefore wanting to see a similar replacement exercise as what happened to Clarke and McInnes seems extremely relevant to me.
Quote:You can argue Lowe and Gregory would not have come in 1980 if you like but you miss the point. The point is the club was not afraid to replace good people with better people. It was the kind of ambitious move that typified the 1st Mo regime.
And did it take him 6/7/8 years to get to that point without the Handicap of having to do it within Salary Cap (And given your knowledge of the Cap I thought your views would have been a little more understanding to the Patience required given existing contracts etc that can't be thrown out of the window like in the old days) and the Bosman rulings that have changed the face of the transfer system!
It didn't take him 6 or 7 years at all. This is just utter nonsense. We had a scrum half, Ford, who was quite good - we appointed a better one, Gregory. We currently had a scrum half who was OK but not the best 7, supposedly on a high wage so what do we do? We give him a new deal when his wages could have gone, IMO, on a better player. We were actually in an unconstrained position to deal here. And as to the salary cap it works both ways i.e. players can't command silly money any more so your implication that I am suggesting we chuck money around as if there was no cap is wide of the mark.
As to the Bosman ruling what on earth are you on about now?
Quote:Where were we after 18 months of Lindsay's time in charge????
What was the forecast for the club after 18 months of Lindsay's charge????
If anyone is missing a point, probably again to get their own agenda across, in relation to the original post (I swear I am not BN BTW after using the phrase "In relation to") it is You.
What's my agenda?
Quote:Sticking with Noble is the opposite of that. Sticking with him is not IMO part of some master rebuilding plan but the exact opposite.
Who said Stick with Noble???? Why do you keep bringing EVERYTHING down to Sacking or Sticking with Noble?
Show me where I said IMOP where I said we Must stick with Noble???????
Did I noit in fact say that I (That's Me Dave, Not You!) felt we would be better off as a Club in sticking with Noble this Year However if IL can find the right man NOW to take us on or the Next 3 years then Yes go and get him.
Well at least we agree on something.
Quote:If he isn't available now but he is at the end of the Year then By all means start negotiations and sign a deal for Next year, But I (Again Me!) don't think Sacking Noble Today or Tomorrow whill help the situation!
More importantly than that!
WHY?
Do you keep bringing the post back to the Single point of Sacking Noble????
This isn't a Noble debate, wasn't meant as a Noble Debate and from looking at my OP I don't belive I put more than 5% of the post discussing the Noble Situation.
<sigh> The reason Noble's position got mentioned again is because of the parallels between what happened in 1986 and what I would like to see happen now. You are the one who was harking back to how it was then as if we could learn lessons from it. Well IMO one of the biggest lessons we could learn was what happened with the Clarke/McInnes/Lowe situation.
Quote:IL may or may not get it right short term about Noble I am more interested that he get's the coaching position & structure right Long term and that his next appointment is the right one (And I don't mean Perfect one, I mean the right one to take us 1 more step in the right direction).
I dont belive getting rid of Noble at the end of Last year or Now is the right one, That's all! Should I be hung for that Opinion?
You seem to want to hang me for expressing the opposite opinion.
Quote:So as to what I would do well the obvious starting point is sack Noble and move for someone like Kearney.
Sack him and then move for him???
Why not move for him and then let Noble see out his contract or replace him When Kearney or Whomever actually agrees/signs for Wigan!
How about because the longer he stays the more damage he is doing? I'd have Wane in as caretaker tomorrow if it was up to me.
Quote:No, You would just sack Noble and then try and get who you want, leaving the Club slightly open to ransom in a delicate and possibly desperate position.
Don't be so ridiculous.
Quote:Sacking Noble is not THE ONLY SINGLE FACTOR that will get Wigan bqack to the Top of the Tree, it may be one of them but it isn't the Only one!
I would rather IL make a number of inter linking decisions that co-ordinated the appointment of the next Coach with the Ethos & structure of what we want to do with our Coaching strucutre our Youth development our financial development (As a Standalone club rather than under the Wing of a Fairy Godmother) etc etc!
You are right it is not the only single factor which is why I said it was a starting point. It is however the most significant change that can be made to influence the clubs future in the short term.
Quote:What would happen if we sacked Noble today, got Kearney Tomorrow and results were the same or worse in 12 months time??
Sack him and get someone else????
Those days are long gone, we need to make a medium/long term decision as to who/what is the best course of action to take and then give that person/person the time to do it.
What would you suggest we do if that happened? The fact of the matter is Noble has been a failure at Wigan. His only achievement was saving us from relegation. Thank you Brian, time to move on. He has achieved nothing else and without going over them all again there are plenty of other valid criticisms of Noble's time here as coach.
Dave
