DaveO wrote:Not of we continue to make "progress" as we have done since 2006 we won't.
Results wise we have gone backwards no if's or but's about it but still regardless of that imo we are putting together the basis for a good team. A new HB to direct and a respected prop would put to another level competitiveness wise.
Our young players are 2nd to none Ainscough, Tomkins x2 & Prescott would be taken by any other club in the league. We’ve got another level of youngsters like Goulding, Mcilorum & O’Carroll who are still better than a lot other clubs best prospects. The future is bright if they are maximised via the loan system/ accelerator schemes which IL has showed he’s clued into.
We've also got the likes of Hock, Lockers, Gleeson, Carmont, Feka, Richards & Tommy who are more than good enough senior players to play big roles in championship winning setups.
Quote:Not sure how you conclude a player of Riddell's age has a great future here but regardless of that the problem is we are not making any progress at all.
If I’m correct is the guy not 27? Since when did a 27 year old not have a good future? That’s five years min at the club if he stays till he’s 32 which isn't unreasonable to think he may. He's already an improvement on Higham so again a step forward which is what was eluded to in the OP.
Quote:What the orignal post alludes to in the past of gradual or even revolutionary progress has is not happening at the moment. The best two examples I can think of are our current coach and scrum half positions. Under the old regime out went McInnes and Clarke who won us a challenge cup and in came Lowe.
As I said a new good HB would transform this team and bring out the best in what is imo a talented and exciting backline waiting to be unleashed with a little bit more clever play by our HB’s. Think back to Trent and the effect his passing game had on the likes of Joel and Hansen’s attacking game. Losing Trent was big but again he was still gonna leave at the end of this season as he was a short term fix. Add Tommy to nine scooting and we’ve got a very good balance at that position to.
Quote:Also under the old regime out went Mick Ford and in came Andy Gregory.
Now if it is suggested Noble isn't good enough or TL isn't a good enough 7 to take us forward, this is considered sacrilege by some. However look at what the club did back then! It got rid of successful coaches and a good young scrum half because they were not good enough to take us to the next step.
It remains to be seen if IL is as ruthless as that. Depending where TL ends up playing (9 or 7) he has not gone out looking for the next level up of scrum half. Will he keep Noble? We shall see but I think these two examples show the parallels between then and now are not so clear cut at all.
Again you’re assuming TL will play 7 next season and that Noble will also be the coach 2. IMO it’s very, very unlikely Noble will be here next season (so to knock IL on it is laughable) but when he does leave he should be congratulated for settling the club down in a time of crisis, keeping hold of some good young talent and imo taking us massively forward from the Betts then Milward era. We needed stability and he gave it now it’s time for ‘Lowe’ to come in and take us up again. You honestly can’t say Noble wasn’t a step forward from Milward nor has he put in some good foundations at the club.
Tommy also will be moving to 9 imo. It makes sense for the club and player as both know Tommy playing 7 isn’t the best option and Tommy obviously must be able to see that if he moves to 9 his international place will be a lot more secure than it is a seven.
Do you honestly not think we are moving forward bit by bit and just a few changes will revolutionise us? IMO you can where we are heading and how we need to get there which is a lot better than other clubs like Wire, Hull FC, Castleford, Wakey who are either doing good but can only take it so far or just don’t have that potential for greatness in them.
3 World Club Challenges 19 League Titles 17 Challenge Cup wins ONE CLUB WIGAN RLFC
What has Riddell offered that Higham hadnt?....he is taking a quopta spot and looks off the pace.
How can you say IL has taken us forward?......results on and off the field will judge that and cannot see and type of improvements over Mo yet.
Riddell is 27 and an established first grade NRl player so he should be offering something instead of coming over here and expecting to improve under us we should be improving under him.
So you say Tommy to 9 ....well with Piggy at 9 also does that mean MM will be released as you cannot have 3 hookers in the modern day cap as its a waste so then IL will be going back on the promise of homegrown players and releasing someone who is outplaying his opposite Aussie counterpart.
Noble may have been a step forward over Millward but was given an open cheque boom and we smashed the cap due to it. Dobson, Fielden and Rads out of retirement and Millward had to do with Jonkers and Jorden James......think you need to look at the bigger picture.
pedro17 wrote:What has Riddell offered that Higham hadnt?...
The ability to actually pass a ball, and a speed of thought faster than dripping treacle?
pedro17 wrote:MM will be released as you cannot have 3 hookers in the modern day cap as its a waste so then IL will be going back on the promise of homegrown players and releasing someone who is outplaying his opposite Aussie counterpart.
MM is quite simply not good enough, he offers absolutely nothing in attack, is indecisive and 'slow' in thought.
Maybe after a loan period he 'may' improve, but it's stupid to keep the lad on what he currently offers just because he came through the academy.
pedro17 wrote:What has Riddell offered that Higham hadnt?....he is taking a quopta spot and looks off the pace.
How can you say IL has taken us forward?......results on and off the field will judge that and cannot see and type of improvements over Mo yet.
Riddell is 27 and an established first grade NRl player so he should be offering something instead of coming over here and expecting to improve under us we should be improving under him.
So you say Tommy to 9 ....well with Piggy at 9 also does that mean MM will be released as you cannot have 3 hookers in the modern day cap as its a waste so then IL will be going back on the promise of homegrown players and releasing someone who is outplaying his opposite Aussie counterpart.
Noble may have been a step forward over Millward but was given an open cheque boom and we smashed the cap due to it. Dobson, Fielden and Rads out of retirement and Millward had to do with Jonkers and Jorden James......think you need to look at the bigger picture.
So here we go off topic again, not even bothering with the OP,s discussion, straight into minute detail think its uyou who needs to look at the bigger picture!
Think the initial post is an excellent summing up of where we are and some good comparisons, I started watching and supporting in the mid sixties and remember well the ups and downs, my first ever season ticket was the year we got relegated, did it stop me supporting the mighty Wigan, obviously not!
We will never again see such dominance of the sport, but I do believe we are going in the right direction under IL and the next coach will be another stepping stone, so come on all you negative whingers get behind the team and KEEP THE FAITH!!
Joined: Sep 06 2002 Posts: 851 Location: Checking on my deferred payments
The one major difference between then and now is that Lindsay et al had no restraints in place as to how and when they recruited, for example they could cast aside a Mike Ford to sign an Andy Gregory and have several star players in the side without it having an impact on squad depth or quality.
The problem with today is that generally squad sizes are minimal, the ability to go out and sign a star player inevitably means cutbacks elsewhere - also the rules have changed. The Wigan side would have likely won the league at last 10 times on the trot had it come down to the play off system, they were getting "shot at" every week and had to perform most weeks not from 3 games out from the end of the season.
pedro17 wrote:What has Riddell offered that Higham hadnt?....he is taking a quopta spot and looks off the pace.
He's a far, far better player than Higham as for a start he's a hooker that can pass and doesn't give away silly pens.
Quote:How can you say IL has taken us forward?......results on and off the field will judge that and cannot see and type of improvements over Mo yet.
Looking at it against Mo’s first stint at Wigan then we are not even close but compared to his 2nd tenure at Wigan and the fiasco’s like SC breaches, rubbish signings on BIG wages, Milward, letting all our top players leave in the space of two seasons, possible relegation & the state of our finances I’m more than happy that IL has taken us away from this sort of regular turmoil and mess.
Add to that we now have a board of directors & a savvy operator like Hogan running the show mixed in with the basis of a good squad which with a few choice signings will be the strongest over all we’ve had in years again imo we are taking small steps forward.
Quote:Riddell is 27 and an established first grade NRl player so he should be offering something instead of coming over here and expecting to improve under us we should be improving under him.
We have imo as he’s a better hooker than Higham. It’s just he’s not Barrett and the void he’s left is far to large for ANY hooker to fill.
Quote:So you say Tommy to 9 ....well with Piggy at 9 also does that mean MM will be released as you cannot have 3 hookers in the modern day cap as its a waste so then IL will be going back on the promise of homegrown players and releasing someone who is outplaying his opposite Aussie counterpart.
Yes MM will be released. Tommy is 23, young, talented and an international who has shown commitment 2nd to none for the club. These are the type of player we need to be keeping imo and if that means an academy product leaves as a result then is it really so bad? And if you think MM is outplaying Piggy then your sadly, sadly mistaken.
Quote:Noble may have been a step forward over Millward but was given an open cheque boom and we smashed the cap due to it. Dobson, Fielden and Rads out of retirement and Millward had to do with Jonkers and Jorden James......think you need to look at the bigger picture.
Regardless of finances he gave us stability and should be thanked for it. He’s now run his course and we need the next level again. Like the OP said small steps forward and not stagnating.
3 World Club Challenges 19 League Titles 17 Challenge Cup wins ONE CLUB WIGAN RLFC
Joined: Oct 06 2006 Posts: 1261 Location: Wigan/Westhoughton
thepriestman85 wrote:He's a far, far better player than Higham as for a start he's a hooker that can pass and doesn't give away silly pens.
Why is he better than Higham? how many games have you been to this season? Does he run from dummy half? does he stay on the pitch as long? is his passing better? show more drive and determination? passion? quicker? I think not. He has had time to settle and there are no fruits.
Quote:Looking at it against Mo’s first stint at Wigan then we are not even close but compared to his 2nd tenure at Wigan and the fiasco’s like SC breaches, rubbish signings on BIG wages, Milward, letting all our top players leave in the space of two seasons, possible relegation & the state of our finances I’m more than happy that IL has taken us away from this sort of regular turmoil and mess.
Any fool can run a steady ship the point is he's had 2 seasons to get a decent squad together and hasn't. His agreements for signings like Mathers, Riddell, Phelps, Smith etc... is shocking. Because they are australian IL wanted to return home from his Mo-esque trip down under with a name and he got whatever was available not people contracted to clubs who were big names. He doesnt want to spend his money (apart form gleeson now)
Quote:Add to that we now have a board of directors & a savvy operator like Hogan running the show mixed in with the basis of a good squad which with a few choice signings will be the strongest over all we’ve had in years again imo we are taking small steps forward.
Mick Hogan is the one of the best things to happen to this club in many a year and for that I commend the club. Do you honestly think with a 'few' good signings we will be right again. On paper Wigan have 'names' not players, many have been here far too long like Fielden to live upto their names, it hasn't happened. If we are going forwards why are we getting worse each year? We did better in our relegation threatened year and results wise have got worse since then, there are stats to back this up (DaveO?). The only way we can make small steps forward is the sacking of Noble.
Quote:(Riddell)We have imo as he’s a better hooker than Higham. It’s just he’s not Barrett and the void he’s left is far to large for ANY hooker to fill.
We dont need a hooker to fill the role of a 6. Nobody can replace Barrett unless we pay top aus$ for the worlds best player, which wont happen.
Quote:Tommy is 23, young, talented and an international who has shown commitment 2nd to none for the club. These are the type of player we need to be keeping imo and if that means an academy product leaves as a result then is it really so bad? And if you think MM is outplaying Piggy then your sadly, sadly mistaken.
I'd rather have an academy product with talent than a foreign player with comitment. We know tommy likes the club, Higham did and he showed the commitment but was released to be replaced by a player who is not as good as Higham in every department (apart form goalkicking). The only reason MM wont get above Riddell is because of Riddell, he's foreign, quota and costs a lot so we have to play him. MM will leave the club for first team football and join the ranks of Briscoe, Robinson, Tickle (debatable) and any successful ex-wiganer. Long (even though it was quite difficult breaking into our 95 squad)?
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DaveO wrote:It's not "B0ll0x" at all. It's a fact we replaced successful coaches who won the cup one year with Lowe the next. And that we replaced a cup winning scrum half who did not look out of place opposite Peter Sterling in the 1985 cup final.
It is DaveO in context with what I originally posted! Yes he did replace Ford with Gregory, but only 5/6 years After taking over the club! In between we had 4/5 other SH before we were in a position to entice/Make a play for Gregory! Would I be Happy if 5 years after IL took over (3 years from now) having a HB partnership as good as Gregory/Edwards with Tomkins/An>Other at 6 then Yes I would! IF Tommy is a stop Gap to get to that Point like Gary Stevens/Mike Ford was then that's alright by me! That's Before we know if IL is going to go for another 6 and play Tommy at 9!
What went on before has got nothing to do with those decisions being made. Better people were available so the club went for them. No pussyfooting around. No misguided loyalty to good players and coaches but right in there for the ones to take us to the next step.
Here we go again! You almost touch on the point but choose to Ignore the points originally made to enable you to get your Agenda across, That we didn't go from Bamford to Lowe or From Pendlebury To Hanley! We took Steps to get to that Point!
You can argue Lowe and Gregory would not have come in 1980 if you like but you miss the point. The point is the club was not afraid to replace good people with better people. It was the kind of ambitious move that typified the 1st Mo regime.
And did it take him 6/7/8 years to get to that point without the Handicap of having to do it within Salary Cap (And given your knowledge of the Cap I thought your views would have been a little more understanding to the Patience required given existing contracts etc that can't be thrown out of the window like in the old days) and the Bosman rulings that have changed the face of the transfer system! Where were we after 18 months of Lindsay's time in charge???? What was the forecast for the club after 18 months of Lindsay's charge????
If anyone is missing a point, probably again to get their own agenda across, in relation to the original post (I swear I am not BN BTW after using the phrase "In relation to") it is You.
Sticking with Noble is the opposite of that. Sticking with him is not IMO part of some master rebuilding plan but the exact opposite.
Who said Stick with Noble???? Why do you keep bringing EVERYTHING down to Sacking or Sticking with Noble? Show me where I said IMOP where I said we Must stick with Noble??????? Did I noit in fact say that I (That's Me Dave, Not You!) felt we would be better off as a Club in sticking with Noble this Year However if IL can find the right man NOW to take us on or the Next 3 years then Yes go and get him. If he isn't available now but he is at the end of the Year then By all means start negotiations and sign a deal for Next year, But I (Again Me!) don't think Sacking Noble Today or Tomorrow whill help the situation!
More importantly than that!
WHY?
Do you keep bringing the post back to the Single point of Sacking Noble???? This isn't a Noble debate, wasn't meant as a Noble Debate and from looking at my OP I don't belive I put more than 5% of the post discussing the Noble Situation. IL may or may not get it right short term about Noble I am more interested that he get's the coaching position & structure right Long term and that his next appointment is the right one (And I don't mean Perfect one, I mean the right one to take us 1 more step in the right direction).
I dont belive getting rid of Noble at the end of Last year or Now is the right one, That's all! Should I be hung for that Opinion?
So as to what I would do well the obvious starting point is sack Noble and move for someone like Kearney.
Sack him and then move for him??? Why not move for him and then let Noble see out his contract or replace him When Kearney or Whomever actually agrees/signs for Wigan!
No, You would just sack Noble and then try and get who you want, leaving the Club slightly open to ransom in a delicate and possibly desperate position.
Sacking Noble is not THE ONLY SINGLE FACTOR that will get Wigan bqack to the Top of the Tree, it may be one of them but it isn't the Only one! I would rather IL make a number of inter linking decisions that co-ordinated the appointment of the next Coach with the Ethos & structure of what we want to do with our Coaching strucutre our Youth development our financial development (As a Standalone club rather than under the Wing of a Fairy Godmother) etc etc!
What would happen if we sacked Noble today, got Kearney Tomorrow and results were the same or worse in 12 months time?? Sack him and get someone else???? Those days are long gone, we need to make a medium/long term decision as to who/what is the best course of action to take and then give that person/person the time to do it.
Dave
Intersting conversation in the Pub After the Saints game when someone was ranting about sacking Noble straight away!
Because a couple of people (And I wasn't involved so there are others out there with a Patient view) said they wouldn't sack Noble straight away the guy went Ballistic!
He said we should get someone who's a proven track record of winning things, someone who's won SL & Challenge Cups, Someone who has won WCC, someone who has international experience Blah Blah Blah!
He then shut up when someone said "What Like Brian Noble?"
The thing is DaveO, Talk is cheap.
And I believe the actions of IL over the last 18 months although Not perfect have overall been the right ones and he has 80% satisfied my long term goals given the circumstances he found himself in and what he has to work within over the Next 5/10 years. Anyone who thinks they would get EVERYTHING right or sits back and criticises every decision They themselves think is wrong is living in the land of the Fairies or is You!
AJ
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