fekafan17 wrote:im not suggesting we are going to win anything, but thinking about next season so early into the season would be an attitude which would see us sit on the bottom of the league.
i go every week and cheer them on we know they can play as we saw at saints game and i hope we play well every week and win but just imagine if we had morley/peacock/grayham up front instead of coley and stu what a team we cud be i am just saying we need to get it right for nxt year
Last Son of Wigan wrote:It's the poor state of this team that we are now considering putting players back into the starting 13 who we once dropped cos they weren't good enough i.e Smith/Phelps.
If we are going to put these players in we need to do something different with them, i.e try them in different positions i.e Phelps at 6, or Smith teaming with Tomkins not Tommy.
Lets take a genuine look at our team and work out how to fix it.
Some of what I have to say will be harsh, and generate disagreement, but this is what I believe is best.
Richards, Roberts, Ainscough.
Here we have 3 wingers. I like all 3, especially Ainscough, but for me we are playing a winger at FB. I want them all in the 17 each week, but playing a winger at FB is a problem.
A true FB does more than kick returns, they join up in the line of attack either as a deep lying second receiver or as a 2nd centre down the same side creating an over lap, support play is also a massive part in their game. Look at how much Webb or Briscoe adds to their teams. If Pat is going to become our FB permanently he needs to spend many an hour with Radders learning the ins and outs of the role. Then maybe we can keep them all in the starting 13, but right now it's effecting our attacking options.
Gleeson and Carmont are quality centres. No issues there.
Sam Tomkins, Tommy, Tim Smith, Phelps.
The halves. This is a massive issue. Tommy is not a 7. He no longer even plays like a 7, a 7 is the biggest creative factor in any team, and to be honest we don't have one, hence why we are so flat and basically look clueless in attack. Wigan didn't play to Sam in france, which worried me, he is a talent, skillful and knows the game, players need to play to Sam more, but it's a lot to ask of him to run the team on his own at his age behind a beaten pack, he needs help. Smith is an interesting one, he has slick hands but has proven to have difficulty reading the game from a defensive view point, he leaves gaps in the line and has trouble tackling, at Wigan this is massive considering how little the pack protects it's players, but no long are fans expecting the world from him as they were after Barrett left, remember Tim has issues, and probably isn't great directly under the spotlight, but now the spotlight has moved it's focus to the likes of Fielden. For this reason, I think a call up maybe on the cards. For this to work he has to be teamed with Sam and not Tommy, when someone partners Tommy they have to practically run the attacking options on their own, not Tommy's fault, he's just not a 7.
Phelps needs to given a run at 6 in the reserves, see how he links up in the position, if he does well, then a call up to the first team could be on the cards, right now the halves need to be sorted a.s.a.p, against Cats no one at all took control of the team.
Front Row Fielden, Prescott, Coley, O Carroll, Riddell, Tommy, Feka, McClorum.
Fielden is doing no good for himself or the club starting or even being in the 17 each week. It's time we forgot about his salary and status and looked at him asking the question-is he good enough to get into the 17? Answer being no. He needs to either-take a rest to get himself together-mentally and physically or run it out in the reserves until he sorts himself out. This leaves us with a starting 4 of, Prescott, O Carroll, Coley and Feka. Which, if Coley pushes on isn't too bad. Take Coley to one side and let him know he's now the experienced prop out there, he needs to step up, throw his weight about and be the pack leader, someone for the other guys to look up to. He's the man. Sports psychology is massive, this could help Coley drive on, in the last few games he's played well, lets encourage this and push on.
Prescott is young but has skills, I was pleased with his offloads after attracting several tacklers against Cats, more games and aggression is what he needs in his game. I want to see O Carroll fired up. I want to see him hit the line like the defending him has just slapped his mother in the face, with every drive I wanna think it could potentially 'kick off' he hitting the line so hard. Then he could become the second impact prop we are looking for. Spell him with the awesome Feka, he needs to be told how much he is valued at the club, and to keep fighting on.
The speed of attack isn't there from dummy half we move up slow and fail to surprise the defensive with speed, we never drag them around the field making them work fearing our attack. Watch how good Tommy was at 9 in the WC, at 7 he was hopeless, at 9 he was quick, had a good step and basically out played the best 9 in the world Cam Smith. With him at 9 we have speed and options and someone who can link up with the halves. He needs to be the starting 9, set the tone and push in with attacking speed, our 3/4 line is awesome, if they were getting the ball at speed it would change everything. Riddell doesn't have the speed we need, he needs to be told if he doesn't improve his speed and fitness he's in the reserves till he proves he has a similar attacking presence to Cunningham. McClorum just doesn't look good enough, but he's young, see where he's at come the end of the season.
Back Row Lockers, Bailey, Hock, Hansen, Joel Tomkins.
We have Hansen and Bailey who are very similar, both can tackle up and prove to be defensively strong throughout the game but offer very little in attack, Hock was missed cos he's the only second row, when Tomkins is off the field who can go forward. We had no go forward with these in the second row, the back 3, a tackle machine, a SR with go forward and a ball playing loose. V Cats we had 3 tacklers no go forward. All 3 need to be able to attack but that is the general structure.
Joel has ability I don't want people to forget how well he played as a 13 with Lockers injured, he was better at 13 that Lockers. He needs to be given the confidence by the coaching staff and played their and told he's the man for the job, go out there, link up with the 6 and 7 and become the best 13 going.
Lockers is a good SR and an OK 13, he can be the tackle machine with go forward in the SR, a back 3 with Lockers-tackle machine, Hock-SR with go forward, and Joel as a ball playing loose we have a good back 3. 3 Wiganers to boot.
My team for next week:
Richards Roberts Gleeson Carmont Ainscough Tomkins Smith Coley Tommy Davies (till O Carroll is fit) Lockers Hock Joel Tomkins ---------------- Feka, Prescott, Riddell Hansen
Look out for Farrell in the reserves I often watch them play and he's the one to watch, if Hock is injured he's the one the start, he has more go forward than Hansen or Bailey.
Tell Smith not to worry about pressure, just go out and play with flair and attacking style, get the ball out to the backs as much as possible.
Tell Coley he's the man, get out there and be aggrestive machine, the man who the others look up to, tell him he's the man, now go out and prove it.
Tell the forwards to fight and show some balls, be men and hit the line hard.
Tell Sam to demand the ball when he wants it, to work off the back of Smith and be a fast flowing second receiver.
Tell Pat to join the centres/wingers in attack when linking up, tell him to become a deep second lying reciever further back and off set off Sam giving Smith more options.
Tell the forwards to protect Smith in defensive and flatten anyone who dares go near their half backs.
Tell Joel to link up with this brother when he can and to stand opposite side of Smith to offer himself as a second receiver on the other side of the field.
Tell Tommy speed for dummy half is everything, race up to the ball and run the other team ragged with dummy runs and force the team to play fast with quick passes from dummy half.
Tell the fans to stick in there and how proud I am to be a Wiganer and feel proud when I see so many Wigners following the men in Cherry and While through anything, gonna keep showing the players how well we play our role.
One of the major elements of my initial speech was 'man-management', devised from sports psychology.
This is something that I think is missing form the team at the moment, self believe, player worth, confidence which will encourage desire, creating a happy team.
I don't believe Noble is generating a good feeling in the camp. We have the players with the skill, just not the self believe anymore.
Noble, in his post cats interview focused on ball control being the fundamental issue, I think it runs much deeper than that, I think it's moral within the team.
IL needs to make the hard decision and sake Nobby.
I just hope right now he's in the process of talking to other managers out there.
Joined: Aug 08 2008 Posts: 1466 Location: Newton-le-Willows
tricky t74 wrote:he wud he is after a new contract and if gets one back to the same old plop we have seen from him for ages now coley the crab
Not necessarily. We could offer him only a year at a time and only need to offer him a new contract if someone else tries to take him from us; if noone does we can offer at the end of the season giving him no chance to sit back and think "I have a contract sod it now."
hula89 wrote:Not necessarily. We could offer him only a year at a time and only need to offer him a new contract if someone else tries to take him from us; if noone does we can offer at the end of the season giving him no chance to sit back and think "I have a contract sod it now."
y wud u want a player who u had to do that with i dont understand ???? when we can let him go get some one like Kylie Leuluai some who wud want to play for the club no matter what we have to replaced stu and andy but it look like we have stu for another year but coley has to go
Coley needs to go. He's not at the standard we require from our props. We simply have to judge him on his performances throughout his time at Wigan, not just when he tries when he's pushing for a new contract.
Many props around who give 100%, they deserve a place at our team.
I'm excited to see what young props we have in the making and they perform. Davies can't be a million miles away from a call up.
Joined: Dec 22 2001 Posts: 14395 Location: Chester
Last Son of Wigan wrote: Lets take a genuine look at our team and work out how to fix it.
Some of what I have to say will be harsh, and generate disagreement, but this is what I believe is best.
I agree with just about everything you wrote. Especially the half back, hooker and back row comments.
Why for example is Noble afraid (which is how it seems to me) to play a back row of Lockers, Hock and J Tomkins?
Playing Smith at 7 is more risky and we would need the likes of Hansen to follow him around in defence but I am sure that is also worth a go. If Phelps can play 6 another alternative would with S Tomkins at 7 and Phelps at 6. That might be less of a defensive liability but then again Phelps tackling technique does tend to see him stretchered off at times!
As to the hookers, if TL starts there I don't see why McIllorum should make way for Riddell. The latter is just not fit enough and there is an irony that one of the attributes you think we will get from TL at 9, the darting runs to get teams on the back foot, is completely lacking from Riddell's game compared to the player who he replaced.
Dave
Last league derby at Central Park 5/9/1999: Wigan 28 St. Helens 20 Last league derby at Knowsley Road 2/4/2010: St. Helens 10 Wigan 18
I disagree with putting Tim Smith in the side. I would still keep him well away from the squad and just opt for Cameron Phelps at six and Sam Tomkins at 7.
Ben Davies at prop instead of Fielden I would agree with. At least you know with Davies he will run his blood to water and give 110%. Whereas with Fielden you only seem to get half the effort. He just surrenders in the tackle far to easily and can't keep hold of the ball either in good positions.
Andy Coley has improved in recent weeks but is still not consistent over 80 minutes to warrant another contract. But an improvement in him nevertheless.
Rugby Union: When entertainment just isn't your thing.
cadoo wrote:I disagree with putting Tim Smith in the side. I would still keep him well away from the squad and just opt for Cameron Phelps at six and Sam Tomkins at 7.
Ben Davies at prop instead of Fielden I would agree with. At least you know with Davies he will run his blood to water and give 110%. Whereas with Fielden you only seem to get half the effort. He just surrenders in the tackle far to easily and can't keep hold of the ball either in good positions.
Andy Coley has improved in recent weeks but is still not consistent over 80 minutes to warrant another contract. But an improvement in him nevertheless.
Tim Smith is a tricky one to call. My main problem with Tim is he defensive skills, or lack of, but I'm slightly baffled how I didn't really pick up on this last season when he was brought on from the bench or in the game when he started in Trent's absence.
Additionally to this I watched him play a handful of times in the NRL and didn't particularly question his defense, it was never outstanding but after all he is a 7.
Which leads me to wonder, could it be a fitness issue? Could be literally be too tired to tackle up correctly? When he's out there for a full 80? After all I did see Tim standing hands and hips many times gasping for air.
Was Smith better protected in Aus? Many 7's are the best defensively but the team looks after them in the def line.
If this aspect of his game was sorted it was be half the problem fixed.
I also commented on the how he was brought into the team, having to fill the large boots of Barrett, the spotlight was on him, is Tim the sort of bloke to deal with this?
Looking at his history in the NRL and how he left I would say no.
Now the exceptions of being a worthy replacement for Barrett has gone, this can only help Tim.
Additionally I don't like the 'split half' system Wigan play where 6 controls one side and 7 controls the other. I don't think this system benefits a ball playing, passing specialist like Smith, in my original post I discussed how Wigan should play with 7 as the first receiver 6 as second with other options coming from the FB and 13, so many options for someone with vision and passing like Tim would be fantastic.
The pressure needs to be off Tim, Nobby needs to make him enjoy his rugby.
I opted to start Phelps off at 6 in the reserves to see how he handles the position with less pressure on him against weaker opposition. I'm not too keen on throwing him in at the deep end in an already dejected team behind a beaten pack.
If Phelps does impress then from this point we can look at playing him at 6. There's even the option to play Phelps and Smith at 6 and 7 in the reserves together.
If this is the case this season we have had terrible consistency in such a key role.
Smith/Tommy
Tomkins/Tommy
Tomkins/Smith
Phelps/Tomkins or Smith.
This really isn't good enough. Lets really invest in a 7 who can run the game as a 1st receiver teaming with Sam, Orford springs to mind.
DaveO wrote:I agree with just about everything you wrote. Especially the half back, hooker and back row comments.
Why for example is Noble afraid (which is how it seems to me) to play a back row of Lockers, Hock and J Tomkins?
Playing Smith at 7 is more risky and we would need the likes of Hansen to follow him around in defence but I am sure that is also worth a go. If Phelps can play 6 another alternative would with S Tomkins at 7 and Phelps at 6. That might be less of a defensive liability but then again Phelps tackling technique does tend to see him stretchered off at times!
As to the hookers, if TL starts there I don't see why McIllorum should make way for Riddell. The latter is just not fit enough and there is an irony that one of the attributes you think we will get from TL at 9, the darting runs to get teams on the back foot, is completely lacking from Riddell's game compared to the player who he replaced.
Dave
It's a good point of discussion. Generally I get the vibe that we all now consider Tommy to be the best 9 at the club, so who should work the interchange with him?
Riddell or Mc?
Tough one, for now I would have to go with Riddell for his understanding of the game, passing and scoots (not that they happen often)
But there is a bigger issue here. It took NZ 2 games to confirm Tommy is a better 9 than 7, after 3/4 years we're only just figuring it out.
We signed a NRL hooker in Riddell as the club saw Tommy as a 7, and now we're umming and rrring whether or not this NRL star is as good as a young lad second back up we already had at the club, who is likely to be considerably less dosh that the Pigster.
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