In fairness frisky we havent done too badly for a town of no more than 60000.

3701 were at the stadium tonight to watch Liverpool and Everton reserves.. !

They got nearly 9000 once. People stopped going when they realised it is as dull as dishwater.

I'd say this is quite negative and exaggerated too.

I wouldn't say 2700 was drastic and I'd suggest the season ticket sales are about 15% down. The club stated over 70% had renewed and another 350 were new season ticket holders. From recollection we have somewhere between 2-2500 ST holders.

You can pick the Barrow game as an example but you could have picked the Leigh game in the NR cup last year which just got over 4000. Probably just as disappointing, Oldham aren't the team they were and are an NL2 side. We also played Sheffield and got 2200, which is much worse.

Crowds are likely to be down this year for whatever reason. We just have to keep them at a reasonable level.

I'd say this is quite negative and exaggerated too.

I wouldn't say 2700 was drastic and I'd suggest the season ticket sales are about 15% down. The club stated over 70% had renewed and another 350 were new season ticket holders. From recollection we have somewhere between 2-2500 ST holders.

You can pick the Barrow game as an example but you could have picked the Leigh game in the NR cup last year which just got over 4000. Probably just as disappointing, Oldham aren't the team they were and are an NL2 side. We also played Sheffield and got 2200, which is much worse.

Crowds are likely to be down this year for whatever reason. We just have to keep them at a reasonable level.

I wouldn't say it was that exaggerated. I used the Barrow game as an example as it was a pretty comparable game (Highly rated NL2 squad, early season, NRC pool game and not a Sunday game).

If 70% of season ticket holders renewed then it stands to reason that 30% have not. That's quite a significant figure IMHO.

OK I admit that I did not mention the 350 new season ticket holders. That is indeed good news but we are nonetheless down on last years total figure. Surely we should not be aiming to REPLACE season ticket holders but INCREASE the number.

I did not mean to sound negative but was simply supporting the opening posters concern that we might find crowds significantly down this season (and possibly ongoing) when this is a key area that will be looked at for the next round of Franchises.

I don't think we need to just keep them at reasonable level, but also keep them significantly in excess of our rivals.

Good points and I agree.

I'd love our crowds to increase but that is unlikely in my opinion mainly because of franchising. If we can keep them at a sustainable level then we provide a realistic alternative to a Wakefield or a Castleford if they don't get a new stadium. If we are at the same level then our bid is the same just without the fact that we went bust which realistically was their only justification for leaving us out.

The crowd was down and ST sales are down but on a positive note many of us thought with franchising crowds would quickly drop off. There are fans who have thrown their dummies out of the pram with RL and decided not to renew, they don't realise that harm they are doing to Widnes RL. Do they think that the RFL really cares that they are boycotting RL? It just gives them validation to leave us out next time.

Personally I think that Steve O got rid of McCormack so quickly partly because of this reason. There hasn't been much optimism in the pre-season and this is in part to do with the side Steve has assembled. We need a big name to get that buzz and optimism back and then we will find it easier to attract new fans and get fans coming back.

We're probably looking at around 2500 on Saturday. If we'd appointed Hanley I reckon that would've been approaching 4000.

Who are your rivals ?

On the pitch for 80 minutes they are the teams you will play this season

Off the pitch you mean the clubs that will be applying for SL

But if all the NL/Championship clubs take a 3 year or bust mentallity then we as a competition are as good as dead now

On the pitch , fine we compete with each other , off the pitch we collaborate or die

All the best

The thing is most fans still haven't and won't let it go. If they do they'll probably drift away from the game. This 3 year thing still allows people to hold on to a faint glimmer.

If we were made to accept that we would never see the top flight again like for instance Dewsbury, Batley or Hunslet then I think we'd see a massive drop in attendance.

Personally my interest would definitely be less.

Yes Starbug, my final statement was a selfish one. At the end of the day the main target for this club over the next three years will be to maintain the pole position for a Franchise that you yourself have admitted we are in.

I totally agree with the need for us to collaborate. I certainly did not mean that I hope our NL/Championship colleagues crowds reduce. Indeed healthy crowds throughout would only benefit Widnes' totals ultimately anyway. It certainly gave me no pleasure to note that no NRC crowd last weekend exceeded even 50% of the Widnes crowd, disappointing as we felt that was.

Initial indications are suggesting that the Franchise effect we all feared is happening and driving crowds down at our level. That is the real concern and one which we all need to work hard to reverse.