Joined: Jul 15 2005 Posts: 29811 Location: West Yorkshire
Diogenes wrote:As Wilf says it will be a similar set up to the council's property maintenance & construction company Kingstown Works limited (KWL). The directors will all be councillors but it will have a professional management team.
What's the deal with Kingston Community Developments Ltd? AFAIK, the council own Craven Park but granted a peppercorn lease to KCD who sublet to Hull KR. Is that manned by councillors too? For all the mithering about the SMC not giving the council a return on the KC, what do the council get from owning the freehold of Craven Park? What are the arrangements here, commercial and management?
Joined: May 25 2002 Posts: 37704 Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
knockersbumpMKII wrote:Thanks for that, it would appear that there was no thought about the KC coming under control by this new company in 2013 as it is not listed in the appendix. Leisure company business case pdf I would think we'd all know about it if the council had added on the stadium & was planning to take control through this organisation as it would have to be included in the business model. Despite what that bit of paper says & everything else regarding what the council are allowed to do (or what they might/might not act on) they would find it nigh on impossible to wrestle back control of the stadium. You think Allam would sit back and just say okay, you've got me, have it back.. , the council have made a rod for their backs pretty much from the off and by not intervening years back they've made the situation worse virtually beyond anything but piecemeal 'control'.
IF they've got some hyper plan to oust the Allam's grip on the stadium they need to get it laid on the table pretty sharpish because as things stand it's being running away from them for years. As I said, I just think they'll be a few concessions/compromises, a load of bluster and huffing and puffing and then the status quo (sic) will be as you were. If I'm wrong I'd be delighted but I just don't see the council having enough resolve/know how/legal footing etc to fix this properly.
Fook me, you're an expert on local governance now too?
I reckon that between you and me, we know everything there is to know in the world.
You seem to know everything about anything, apart from the fact that you're a clueless 2@.
I know that you're a clueless 2@, so between us we must know absolutely everything
knockersbumpMKII wrote:Thanks for that, it would appear that there was no thought about the KC coming under control by this new company in 2013 as it is not listed in the appendix. Leisure company business case pdf I would think we'd all know about it if the council had added on the stadium & was planning to take control through this organisation as it would have to be included in the business model. Despite what that bit of paper says & everything else regarding what the council are allowed to do (or what they might/might not act on) they would find it nigh on impossible to wrestle back control of the stadium. You think Allam would sit back and just say okay, you've got me, have it back.. , the council have made a rod for their backs pretty much from the off and by not intervening years back they've made the situation worse virtually beyond anything but piecemeal 'control'.
IF they've got some hyper plan to oust the Allam's grip on the stadium they need to get it laid on the table pretty sharpish because as things stand it's being running away from them for years. As I said, I just think they'll be a few concessions/compromises, a load of bluster and huffing and puffing and then the status quo (sic) will be as you were. If I'm wrong I'd be delighted but I just don't see the council having enough resolve/know how/legal footing etc to fix this properly.
Fook me, you're an expert on local governance now too?
I reckon that between you and me, we know everything there is to know in the world.
You seem to know everything about anything, apart from the fact that you're a clueless 2@.
I know that you're a clueless 2@, so between us we must know absolutely everything
The older I get, the better I was
Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."
cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12671 Location: Leicestershire.
Diogenes wrote:As Wilf says it will be a similar set up to the council's property maintenance & construction company Kingstown Works limited (KWL). The directors will all be councillors but it will have a professional management team.
Sounds like a sensible enough arrangement. basically a council department, with a bit more managerial freedom, but with council determined boundaries and priorities?
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12671 Location: Leicestershire.
Mrs Barista wrote:What's the deal with Kingston Community Developments Ltd? AFAIK, the council own Craven Park but granted a peppercorn lease to KCD who sublet to Hull KR. Is that manned by councillors too? For all the mithering about the SMC not giving the council a return on the KC, what do the council get from owning the freehold of Craven Park? What are the arrangements here, commercial and management?
I don't think anyone is that mithered by the lack of a return. The fear is more that it could cost the council a significant amount of money to run and maintain. The risk of that being the (IMO slightly dubious) rationale for an SMC in the first place, i assume. How significant that risk is, basically determines how strong a hand Allam has.
As a return isn't expected on the KC, a peppercorn rental agreement, with Hull Fc and Hull City taking direct responsibility for maintenance and running costs might indeed be a sensible approach. This would, as it does across the City, mitigate the risk borne by the community, give Hull FC greater control and relieve Allam of the responsibility he finds so burdensome. A 3-way win!
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Joined: Jul 15 2005 Posts: 29811 Location: West Yorkshire
[quote="Mild Rover"]I don't think anyone is that mithered by the lack of a return. The fear is more that it could cost the council a significant amount of money to run and maintain. The risk of that being the (IMO slightly dubious) rationale for an SMC in the first place, i assume. How significant that risk is, basically determines how strong a hand Allam has.
As a return isn't expected on the KC, a peppercorn rental agreement, with Hull Fc and Hull City taking direct responsibility for maintenance and running costs might indeed be a sensible approach. This would, as it does across the City, mitigate the risk borne by the community, give Hull FC greater control and relieve Allam of the responsibility he finds so burdensome. A 3-way win! [/quote]
[quote="Mild Rover"]I don't think anyone is that mithered by the lack of a return. The fear is more that it could cost the council a significant amount of money to run and maintain. The risk of that being the (IMO slightly dubious) rationale for an SMC in the first place, i assume. How significant that risk is, basically determines how strong a hand Allam has.
As a return isn't expected on the KC, a peppercorn rental agreement, with Hull Fc and Hull City taking direct responsibility for maintenance and running costs might indeed be a sensible approach. This would, as it does across the City, mitigate the risk borne by the community, give Hull FC greater control and relieve Allam of the responsibility he finds so burdensome. A 3-way win! [/quote]
Okay, some people are disappointed - but I think they're missing the point. It was a prestige project, primarily to support valued civic sporting institutions. Outsourcing the risk means you'll definitely outsource the profit (though the vice versa to that isn't such a good bet).
It has been a success in helping to bring the City more sporting prestige. Revenue generation wasn't the main priority, I strongly suspect. To the extent that money was an issue, it was in terms of trying to protect the community from ongoing costs - and they've managed that.
Now the system that has either short changed or protected the community, but not caused too many headaches, is, ahem, 'under strain'.
I'd have no problem with a peppercorn rent approach (that'd be hypocritical), with Hull City and Hull FC taking direct responsibility for running and upkeep. And also having control over the food and drink concessions and stuff like that. The clubs could keep any additional profit they make, and the community is as protected as they are now, possibly more so. What would you think to that, hypothetically? The arena is slightly different issue, of course.
Okay, some people are disappointed - but I think they're missing the point. It was a prestige project, primarily to support valued civic sporting institutions. Outsourcing the risk means you'll definitely outsource the profit (though the vice versa to that isn't such a good bet).
It has been a success in helping to bring the City more sporting prestige. Revenue generation wasn't the main priority, I strongly suspect. To the extent that money was an issue, it was in terms of trying to protect the community from ongoing costs - and they've managed that.
Now the system that has either short changed or protected the community, but not caused too many headaches, is, ahem, 'under strain'.
I'd have no problem with a peppercorn rent approach (that'd be hypocritical), with Hull City and Hull FC taking direct responsibility for running and upkeep. And also having control over the food and drink concessions and stuff like that. The clubs could keep any additional profit they make, and the community is as protected as they are now, possibly more so. What would you think to that, hypothetically? The arena is slightly different issue, of course.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Joined: Jul 15 2005 Posts: 29811 Location: West Yorkshire
Mild Rover wrote:Okay, some people are disappointed - but I think they're missing the point. It was a prestige project, primarily to support valued civic sporting institutions. Outsourcing the risk means you'll definitely outsource the profit (though the vice versa to that isn't such a good bet).
It has been a success in helping to bring the City more sporting prestige. Revenue generation wasn't the main priority, I strongly suspect. To the extent that money was an issue, it was in terms of trying to protect the community from ongoing costs - and they've managed that.
Now the system that has either short changed or protected the community, but not caused too many headaches, is, ahem, 'under strain'.
I'd have no problem with a peppercorn rent approach (that'd be hypocritical), with Hull City and Hull FC taking direct responsibility for running and upkeep. And also having control over the food and drink concessions and stuff like that. The clubs could keep any additional profit they make, and the community is as protected as they are now, possibly more so. What would you think to that, hypothetically? The arena is slightly different issue, of course.
I fully agree the outrage of "no return" is stupid. Libraries, parks, art galleries etc aren't cash cows.
I think what you're talking about though is, in theory, what the SMC is supposed to do. But what happens IMO is the costs since the Allam's took over have escalated and the allocation of shared costs looks to be done on a different basis each year, with increasing amounts supposed to be Hull FC's. I think the latest version showed our operating costs were around £1.2m pa? It's possible they charged us half the cost of relaying the pitch though, you can't tell, and this would be cheeky if we'd not asked/wanted/needed it doing. The massive conflict of interest in ownership of SMC and primary tenant + antagonistic attitude of the Allam's to the Council and us makes it impossible to reach a fair and transparent position. As has been pointed out before, there is a commercial benefit to us in the purchase of passes but unless the council do a forensic audit of costs, income and allocations, it's unlikely we'll get this. Best outcome all round would be to break the current deal and have an independent arbiter to negotiate terms for the next 25 years with in independent operating body. Both clubs need certainty of outgoings, especially FC for whom a small change is a massive % of our business as opposed to a drop in a £70m ocean for City.
Joined: May 25 2002 Posts: 37704 Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
RUSCADOR
Nothing more, just that
The older I get, the better I was
Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."
cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan
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, the council have made a rod for their backs pretty much from the off and by not intervening years back they've made the situation worse virtually beyond anything but piecemeal 'control'.
