Joined: Mar 07 2007 Posts: 7121 Location: Warrington
Asim wrote:I just can't see why he hasn't worked on another system to try out when things aren't going our way playing how he wants us to, our opponents have had plenty of time to study our system and find ways to restrict us, and it is always likely you'll need a plan B, C or even D - Capello is risking all the good he undoubtedly has done by seeming to be unwilling to change things.
You're right, it was a problem I was discussing with my partner's dad before, but it seems he escapes all criticism because of qualification.
Qualification was nice, Asim, but you also have to look at some of our results and performances in friendles. We were outclassed by the French early on in the reign, outclassed by Spain and Brazil, too. There's no shame in that, but the signs were clearly there that his formation wasn't made for games like that, nor would it ever be. The signs were there to devise a plan B, maybe using one striker up front with a creative midfielder in the hole, maybe using two proper wings to open up the pitch, maybe to use a tenacious holding player to win the ball back. We have had signs time and time again, but it's almost like he's trying to copy Lippi's 2006 side, only he doesn't have the personnel to make it work, so change is needed.
The results against Croatia were good, particularly the away one, but it clouded a lot of people's judgments. They had 10 men and were picked off on the counter, whilst that's always nice, we've never actually shown any sign of improving our distribution, decision making and our general speed and work rate around the pitch.
Joined: Feb 18 2006 Posts: 18610 Location: Somewhere in Bonny Donny (Twinned with Krakatoa in 1883).
Sometimes....sometimes....and especially in England's case, events push the manager into putting players onto the park who weren't his first choice.
I can think of a few cases were this has happened. And those players go on and do a marvellous job. Our best side is realised by accident rather than design.
I really hope that against Slovenia that happens....but I fear this idiot will stick with the old guard and we will struggle.
Why doesn't he do it the other way round with our strikers since his first two attempts have been a disaster? Start with Crouch and Defoe....he can always put Roony and Heskey on if it doesn't work. But whatever you do Capello give your subs a 20+ minutes chance please.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Thank God I'm an atheist.
Last edited by Stand-Offish on Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Robbie Rotten wrote:You're right, it was a problem I was discussing with my partner's dad before, but it seems he escapes all criticism because of qualification.
Qualification was nice, Asim, but you also have to look at some of our results and performances in friendles. We were outclassed by the French early on in the reign, outclassed by Spain and Brazil, too. There's no shame in that, but the signs were clearly there that his formation wasn't made for games like that, nor would it ever be. The signs were there to devise a plan B, maybe using one striker up front with a creative midfielder in the hole, maybe using two proper wings to open up the pitch, maybe to use a tenacious holding player to win the ball back. We have had signs time and time again, but it's almost like he's trying to copy Lippi's 2006 side, only he doesn't have the personnel to make it work, so change is needed.
The results against Croatia were good, particularly the away one, but it clouded a lot of people's judgments. They had 10 men and were picked off on the counter, whilst that's always nice, we've never actually shown any sign of improving our distribution, decision making and our general speed and work rate around the pitch.
Agree with all that, I never thought we were real contenders, but I just can't see why he hasn't developed, or even tried an alternative system or two.
The system worked to get us here but it's clear that everyone has to be fit and in form for it to work, and too many players clearly aren't - it's always likely to happen and Capello should have had some contingency in place - it's a black mark against him.
I wrote a really long post about systems and players that just vanished so now I'm giving up.
Still trying to get my head together after last nights woeful performance by England last night, a majority of those on the field are probably commanding a wage of £50k+ per week but seemed unable to string a few passes to each other and be creative. Instead we were left clueless and struggling against a team currently ranked 30th by FIFA, there can be no excuses as the fact is we weren't simply good enough on the night.
I know Rooney may have been frustrated but in my opinion his comment about the vocal section of England fans was out of order, some of those people will have not had holidays for the last few years to save up to attend the World Cup so naturally they're disappointed with the teams display in the tournament so far.
For Wednesday's big game I would change both formation and selection, the games so far prove that a Gerrard / Lampard midfield partnership doesn't work.
James Johnson Upson Terry Dawson A.Cole Barry Lampard J.Cole Gerrard Rooney
I would play 3 at the back allowing Johnson & A.Cole to push forward, play Rooney in his Man U role and Gerrard supporting him.
England have to be much more adventurous or we'll be joining France on the flight home after exiting the comp after making no impact at all.
I think we'll still qualify for the knock out stages but we desparately need our better players to find some form.
We've started tournaments badly in the past and improved dramatically, but then we were able to bring in new players that had a really big impact. Hurst, Ball & Peters in '66, Gascoigne, Platt & Wright in '90. I cant really see any of the players that didnt feature yesterday having that sort of impact. Joe Cole must be worth trying, but only to give us better balance.
I always expected that we'd start the tournament playing 4-4-2 and then evolve into 4-5-1 when we played the better teams. We need to do that sooner rather than later, bringing in Cole for Heskey and playing Gerrard behind Rooney. Any other changes in personnel will largely be a case of swapping one average player for another.
PAUL M wrote:I'm at a loss. That was easily one of the worst displays I have seen from England in quite some time. I can't understand how a team with the same personel and manager produced such good football and won matches in qualifying yet can't string 5 passes together in the WC.
Capello to me is making mistakes, SWP should not be within a 1000 miles of SA yet he takes off a genuine threat in Lennon and replaces him with a bloke who just runs into defenders!! Barry did a job in qualifying but his problem is he struggles to pass the ball, I honestly think Carrick or Huddlestone would do a far better job than him. Why oh why is he persisting with Heskey, I know the value he brings to a side but this is International football and we need both strikers to carry a goal threat, I thought we looked much better with Defoe on.
Rooney - he just can't be fit. His touch was awful, he should little desire, he got out muscled several times and he looked really unhappy. Most comments will be about his comment towards the England fans after tha game but to me that was pure frustration. I just don't think he is fit and that is a big problem for England as he is our main man.
There has to be changes for the next game and Fabio has to be bold.
Agree with that last bit. Get Joe Cole on the left, stick Gerrard in behind Rooney. Barry can then sit, this will give Lampard more chance to get in the box, and let's face it he or Gerrard are much more likely to score a goal than Heskey. Joe Cole will provide an outlet and abit of imagination on the left, Gerrard looked lost to me last night.
Temptation, greets you like your naughty mate,
The one that used to get you in bother,
But one that you could never bring yourself to hate.
Joined: Apr 23 2002 Posts: 3882 Location: In the midst of Manchester's Steak Diane belt
Walshovski wrote:I haven't read this thread as I'm guessing it contains the same old arguments about why England aren't very good. The reality is England have never been good at football and the sooner people realise that the better. From about 1950 when we started realising other countries actually played football we have never been the football power we think we are, barring one exception in 1966 the myth of which haunts England to this day. England's first 4 World Cups were total disasters, crashing out in all of them almost as soon as they got there. These squads contained people regarded in the British game as total gods, Finney, Matthews, Wright, Lofthouse, Charlton, Greaves, Moore, Mortensen, Milburn, Mannion etc yet we were either out in the group stage or the quarters at the laterst every time.
Then you get to 1966, which people now hark back to as some sort of a golden age when England showed Johnny Foreigner how to play the game and it's only a matter of time before we return to that kind of domination if only we can get better at penalties or employ the right manager, right tactics etc. In reality '66 was a blip on the other wise totally ordinary record of the England national team. There were some incredibly ropey results in the build up to '66, home defeats to Austria, draws with Wales, Scotland, Holland and Belgium. England probably wouldn't have qualified if they weren't hosts. Home advantage, being able to play all their games at Wembley, referees allowing some shocking rough housing tactics against the likes of Brazil and Pele in particular, Nobby Stiles getting away with kicking Eusebio to bits in the sembo, Rattin getting sent off in a game England were otherwise unlikely to win, the goal that never was in the final the list is endless of things that went England's way. While you can't take the achievement away from them it would have been harder not to win the World Cup in 1966 than it was to win it. By 1967 Scotland had won at Wembley and by '74 England couldn't even qualify from a group of Wales and Poland.
I won't bother going through every example of England's failure since then as everyone already knows them, but the myth of 1990 is another nonsense. At the start of the tournament the press were calling for them to be sent home such was the awfulness of the performances. Scraped wins against Belgium and the footballing giants of Cameroon and a gutsy lost to Germany with Gazza crying and it became a great hard luck story.
The point I'm getting at is the problems of English football are the fundamentals. Why do we spend £800 million on the new Wembley yet we haven't as yet built ourselves a National Football Centre that would be of infinitely more use? Why can't we produce a player who can run and kick with his left foot that we can play on the wing? Why does every nation we play keep the ball with so much more ease? Why do our kids still play on full side pitches at ridiculously young ages? Why can Northern Ireland produce George Best and we can't? The only surprise is we act surprised every time we get knocked out.
I don't really give two tuppences about England but it just annoys me when people think we should be dispensing peasant nations like Algeria because we are England! Just because we like football doesn't mean we are good at it. PNG loves Rugby League but it doesn't create them a good team. For what it's worth I think England will sneak through and draw permitting go on an Italia 90 style run.
Nail. Head. The. On.
And as for the England supporters who have "saved up so much" to go to South Africa being able to boo the team off - they didn't have to save and spend all that money on going to the World Cup and if they go to games EXPECTING to win all the time then they deserve to get some poop performances from time to time. Booing teams helps no-one whatsoever and only leads to frustration from all sides. If you go to the cinema and watch Twilight or any other myriad of utter gash films do you boo at the end of those too???
Lets be honest, on the two performances so far, we really aren't going to get anywhere near the Final although at the moment it's still entirely possible that we will get through the group stage.
We were shocking last night and only the fact that Algeria simply don't score goals allowed us to secure a draw.
I don't understand how Heskey is considered worth taking ... Kevin Davies would do a much better job (I know, I would say that).
Barry spent half the night protecting Terry and Carragher.
SWP for Lennon ... I'll never understand that (it wasn't going to change anything) ... both spent much of their time trying fancy flicks rather than thinking of taking the ball and trying to actually beat a man.
Joe Cole not involved ... something else I don't get.
Lampard ... one shot apart, pretty anonymous yet again.
Rooney ... poor last night and should think about keeping his mouth shut in future.
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