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Finfin wrote:So you can't criticise the guy for his performances - which have been spot on - but you have a go at him on a hypothetical basis.

Would Pat have been as effective at centre?
Would Offiah have been as effective at centre?
Would Goulding be critised if he had turned in 22 months of average performances as Amos Roberts has done?

Some players (usually the non star names) just can't win.

hula89 wrote:

Its like Pryce. Solid in defence scores every time he plays but for some reason because it "looks like he doesnt try" (despite as mentioned previous SCORING EVERY TIME HE PLAYS!!) he's the devil :S it doesn't make sense at all.

jonh wrote:
Joel is developing very very well in the second row, he has added a real aggressive edge to his play, and a bit of mongrel which is really serving him well. His concussive aggressive tackles are a big part of his game and he would not be as effective at this in the centre.

Mr.Side wrote:Where did Joel play last Sunday?

Rogues Gallery wrote:He had spells both in the second row and at centre.

Author:	hula89 [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joel Tomkins
Finfin wrote:So you can't criticise the guy for his performances - which have been spot on - but you have a go at him on a hypothetical basis. Would Pat have been as effective at centre? Would Offiah have been as effective at centre? Would Goulding be critised if he had turned in 22 months of average performances as Amos Roberts has done? Some players (usually the non star names) just can't win. Its like Pryce. Solid in defence scores every time he plays but for some reason because it "looks like he doesnt try" (despite as mentioned previous SCORING EVERY TIME HE PLAYS!!) he's the devil :S it doesn't make sense at all.

Author:	Jukesays [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joel Tomkins
Finfin wrote:So you can't criticise the guy for his performances - which have been spot on - but you have a go at him on a hypothetical basis. Would Pat have been as effective at centre? Would Offiah have been as effective at centre? Would Goulding be critised if he had turned in 22 months of average performances as Amos Roberts has done? Some players (usually the non star names) just can't win. Read what I said properly in full. I was responding to the discussion regarding Marsh and his centre Play. Goulding had exactly the same criticism in his first 2 x seasons which were predominantly at centre and I believe it wasn't his loan period at Salford that improved him (I think it may have given him some confidence back) more so his positional switch to Wing. I have pointed out many times previously & during last season that Someone had said to me that Goulding would be a better winger than centre & I had started to agree with that assumption WAY BEFORE Maguire moved him there. I was Hypothetical in my assumptions regarding Gouldings performances at Centre over 30 or so games but I would feel pretty confident that he wouldn't have been as big of a success last season if he had played 30 games there as opposed to his 30 games on the wing. I think his performaces on the Wing have been very good and I could point you to the Wire game at the start of last season where when Phelps got injured and Amos moved to FB I said I would play Goulding over Ainscough any day of the week. I just think that at this stage of his career and for Now he's better where he is. Is this the same with Marsh? I think he would get less criticism in this team playing Wing for the next 2 x seasons than he would/will playing centre as he would be less exposed. With regards to Pat/Offiah playing centre, it would prove my point precisely in Pat's scenario. We played a player rmore suited to Wing in the centre position and he copped flak, moved him to Wing and suddenly given a bit of time he's proved to be Fantastic ( I won't use World class as that's a matter of debate/opinion). As for Roberts, I'm not sure where you get 22 months of "Average" performances but I'm not sure if you are saying this because you think I'm Bagging Goulding, I'm not, as I said read my OP in full. hula89 wrote: Finfin wrote:So you can't criticise the guy for his performances - which have been spot on - but you have a go at him on a hypothetical basis. Would Pat have been as effective at centre? Would Offiah have been as effective at centre? Would Goulding be critised if he had turned in 22 months of average performances as Amos Roberts has done? Some players (usually the non star names) just can't win. Its like Pryce. Solid in defence scores every time he plays but for some reason because it "looks like he doesnt try" (despite as mentioned previous SCORING EVERY TIME HE PLAYS!!) he's the devil :S it doesn't make sense at all. As for this, I'm not sure why you agree with Hula89 in his response to me as again if you'd looked at my OP I hadn't criticised Goulding etc And again I'm pretty sure you'll find I'm not far behind Rogues in my appraisal of Pryce and in fact as I said on Sunday to the Boo Boys. "Show me a club with a 4th choice Winger and/or Centre as Good as Pryce as a utility option?". All I am saying is that, and I think this could apply to Marsh long term, is that a Younger player can benefit from playing in what we wouldn't neccesarily consider his "Best" position to ply/learn his trade and in some instances it may be the best thing for him/the team long term.

Author:	jonh [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joel Tomkins
Joel at centre does not work for me. He has certain facets that could prove to be useful there, but he also lacks certain aspects too. Joel is developing very very well in the second row, he has added a real aggressive edge to his play, and a bit of mongrel which is really serving him well. His concussive aggressive tackles are a big part of his game and he would not be as effective at this in the centre. While he has decent pace for his size he lacks natural pace and acceleration, (which I feel they will be looking to improve with him training with the backs but to benefit his secondrow play). He has bags more potential as a secondrow than he does as a centre moving him now to an outside back position would be crazy for me, although potentially he could provide cover there in situations of injury during a match, saving us a major reshuffle and potentially allowing us to run with an all forwards bench.

Author:	NickyKiss [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joel Tomkins
jonh wrote: Joel is developing very very well in the second row, he has added a real aggressive edge to his play, and a bit of mongrel which is really serving him well. His concussive aggressive tackles are a big part of his game and he would not be as effective at this in the centre. Going away from any debate about Joel playing centre or not I must admit to being very happy to see him looking back to his all action and aggresive best on Sunday at Salford. I was a little worried going into this season about how he may get on after the way things went in the Four Nations. I thought in that competition he just didn't look himself and seemed to really lose his aggresive edge and his all action tempo he plays with. Thankfully it was back on Sunday and thats probably down in no small part to being back playing under a top class coaching staff who give you confidence.

Author:	Mr.Side [ Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joel Tomkins
Where did Joel play last Sunday?

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Author:	Rogues Gallery [ Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joel Tomkins
Mr.Side wrote:Where did Joel play last Sunday? He had spells both in the second row and at centre.

Author:	Mr.Side [ Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Joel Tomkins
Rogues Gallery wrote:He had spells both in the second row and at centre. Obviously its only one game, and a friendly at that. But how did he look at centre?

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