Barbed Wire wrote:I understand that Nicholson is young, but the point is that the job on the middle is to make tackles and make meters. There’s no evidence to suggest he can do half of that job. I’m sure he can, and I’m sure on junior grades he has, but if we’re saying that of the two, Currie is the lesser player then that is simply not true. It’s that internal bias owing to expectations and salary.

The point about second rows being extra props was debated last year when Currie was the target again. But we don’t play that style, like it or not. Currie has always done the same, yet rather than replacing him in the mass exodus, we sign a carbon copy for the other side. The club want width from the back row, with leg speed and a bit of ball handling. Which is all well and good when your back three and pack make the meters to get you in position, but they’re not. Games like Saturday show that we’re easily strangled and restricted for meters and momentum, which takes out the ability to go wide. And we don’t have enough in the middle to do anything about it.

I made a point on the other thread that the 6 again rule killed us when we were getting on top. Whenever we look like getting some momentum’s for example Dufty making a few meters on kick return and looking like a quick play the ball to release Ashton to scoot. They would use that rule and completely kill the momentum, let the line get set and strangle us.

So how do you counter that, well you could start your set further up field, meaning the we catch the kick on the full. But that needs kick pressure. To get in a position to pressure the kicker you need to be winning the ruck on the late set tackles. If you wrestle and try and win one against the run of momentum, you risk giving away a late set penalty which is an absolute no-no, so you need to win the early set tackles and squeeze them. But, we don’t. We seen on Saturday Welsby step between Williams and Crowther on kick return. Crowther and Bullock gave away offside penalties on their line. Bullock gives away the penalty on the kick off return… it’s us, our lack of discipline and resilience. We’re the first to crack under the pressure that we’re trying to create. Could be fitness, more likely to be preparedness. How much game like training are we doing under extreme fatigue where these things are tested and practiced. Not enough, evidently.

So we’re not good enough in those arm wrestle elements to play with the width that we want to play. We’ve bought Vaughan, Mikaele (twice), Dudson, Bullock, McGuire, Magoulias, Crowther, Harrison, Kasiano to add to Philbin to try and fix that middle problem. And it’s worse now than when we signed those 9 players. They can’t all be bad players, they’re just under prepared and not fit/motivated enough.

ratticusfinch wrote:Season stats show neither being excellent. Nicholson averages 1/2m more than Currie per carry and has a 6% missed tackle count, Currie has 7%. Both have scored 6 tries (Nicholson has played 10 games fewer), Nicholson has made more tackle busts but made the same amount of errors in fewer games.

If you're going off the stats alone then Nicholson has had the better season.

Bunkaib wrote:What's the tackle stats for both?

Wires71 wrote:7 and 41 metres. But look at the tackles.

Fantastic Mr Catpiss wrote:i dont know if i've mentioned it on here, i've deffo had this conversation on match days that nicholson whilst an encouraging young player, doesnt do an awful lot, and he does get a pass as he's young and came in as a coup from wigan.

chambers himself said in the guardian a few weeks back we needed more from our 2nd rowers.

i've lost track of who said what on this last page, saints have built their forward pack over the last 4 years on bulky back rowers, you see the size of sironen as a second row? very little finesse.

someone just said well thats not the way we play, we dont have a style of play whatsoever, for all of powell's alleged free flowing out wide attack we were winning games when the props were scoring under the sticks this year, under chambers we had a few bright patches, the cas game where we ripped them apart through the middle, we haven't done that in any other game, or attempted to even

Barbed Wire wrote:Mine wasn’t meant a shot at Nicholson. He’s actually a good athlete and I would have him in my squad, just not at the expense of Currie.

The system we’re trying to play of blowing them away down the middle and using pace on the edges is failing. We have (had) pace in all of the key positions. Clark, Williams, Dufty, Ashton and Thewlis are quick. The second rows are faster than the centres, but the centre void is being addressed. The failure is, in my opinion, our 6’4” 110kg prop isn’t hitting as hard as their 6’4” 110kg prop.

Nothing to do with skill. Just about whether they want to, whether they’re fit enough to and whether they are being put in difficult positions to do so by not being as smart at the opposition (i.e. the 6 again).

Fantastic Mr Catpiss wrote:
What do they do, or can they potentially do better than the person they're replacing, nicholson is falling a little into that category for me, after a first season.

Douglas Black wrote:His immediate predecessors at right second row were Holmes and Hughes. He contributes far more than those two.