FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

  

Home The Virtual Terrace Salford Charged with Salary Cap Breach



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 183 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Salford Charged with Salary Cap Breach
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:00 am 
International Star
International Star

Joined: Aug 13 2011
Posts: 7194
Location: east east hull
Stanley30 wrote:I'm not bothered by all the legal ins and outs and what key board lawyers think. I'm just gutted that we finally after years have a decent team which all Salford fans can get behind. There's no superstars, just a team that graft and work hard. Under Watto and Sheens were actually playing decent rugby . It will be such a shame if we get a points deduction when we finally seem to have turned a corner. However, the salary cap is in place for a reason and we must take what's coming. If this was any other team I would expect a points reduction and want it in order to keep our great game fair. Just a shame this was done for a bunch of hyped up mercenaries who did naff all for my club!

The way our seasons going I'm banking on you getting a big points deduction so we can scrap it out with Wakefield for that all important 10th spot :D






einstien said insanity is when a person does the same thing over and over again but expects a different result

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Salford Charged with Salary Cap Breach
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:00 am 
International Star
International Star

Joined: Aug 13 2011
Posts: 7194
Location: east east hull
Stanley30 wrote:I'm not bothered by all the legal ins and outs and what key board lawyers think. I'm just gutted that we finally after years have a decent team which all Salford fans can get behind. There's no superstars, just a team that graft and work hard. Under Watto and Sheens were actually playing decent rugby . It will be such a shame if we get a points deduction when we finally seem to have turned a corner. However, the salary cap is in place for a reason and we must take what's coming. If this was any other team I would expect a points reduction and want it in order to keep our great game fair. Just a shame this was done for a bunch of hyped up mercenaries who did naff all for my club!

The way our seasons going I'm banking on you getting a big points deduction so we can scrap it out with Wakefield for that all important 10th spot :D






einstien said insanity is when a person does the same thing over and over again but expects a different result

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Salford Charged with Salary Cap Breach
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:02 pm 
Player Coach
International Star

Joined: May 24 2007
Posts: 7504
Location: East Stand
Pardon? :-)






Did you get rid of all the voices in your head? Do you now miss them and the things that they said?

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Salford Charged with Salary Cap Breach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:16 am 
International Chairman
An unfair condition or contract term to be allowed to remain within a competition (or club or employment) which is the lifeblood and sole reason for your existance with respect to a rugby club playing rugby under the auspices of the RFL IS unlawful (if decreed such by a court/judge)
By playing and remaining in the 'club' it does not mean you agree with the conditions/contract terms but are essentially being subjected to a form of blackmail, agree or this will happen. What would happen is Salford (or any other club) would essentially no longer exist in its current and very long standing guise.

IMHO the salary cap as it has being kept IS a restriction in trade. If the SC had increased incrementally with inflation at the barest minimum from the outset we wouldn't be in this position of effectively reducing salaries.
Part of the problem of available monies into the sport to make an increased SC more sustainable is the failure of the RFL to get enough money from sponsors and TV into the game. Even sacrificing a million pounds (& in doing so totally devaluing the headline sponsorship value of the league competition at a stroke!) in an ill thought out deal.
Also given the huge strain/demands on SL players (especially over easter) the ability to maintain a squad of players to protect players welfare woild come under scrutiny. Players time and again play through injury have injections to get through a match because not only does the coach feel forced to play them due to quality but he may not have any other options due to lack of fit players. Yes you can play kids but that in itself can impact fulfilling fixtures lower down the order.
The SC restricts any possibility of expansion/improvement (& thus is reatrictive) not just across the country but alao in retaining/accquring players within the aport be that top end talent or younger players who can't be retained or even cannot afford to keep playing due to such small salaries and.move out the sport completely.

Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Salford Charged with Salary Cap Breach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:00 am 
Player Coach
Club Captain

Joined: Apr 04 2009
Posts: 2833
There are two main arguments at play here.
1. Is the SC a restriction of trade.
I would argue that it is not. Players who play in SL have made a clear choice to do so. Players are not forced to play in SL or restricted from earning a higher salary in the NRL or in rugby union, which are comparable jobs. The opportunity to earn a higher salary elsewhere using the same skills consequently means the SC in super league is not restricting their opportunity either to be employed elsewhere, or earn a higher salary doing so.

2. The SC is illegal and unenforceable.
Again, I would argue this is not the case. This is the difference between an illegal act and a breach of contract (ie the contract that a club enters into when it agrees to be involved in RFL competitions). Essentially, any club who breaks the SC breaches it's contract with the RFL. As a result, the RFL are entitled to take action (such as imposing fines and deducting points).

I often find analogies useful and have two that would fit this situation. The first is that of the disciplinary. Players can be fined and suspended (ie punished) for actions on the field of play, but these are not illegal. However, they are the rules imposed by the RFL and if players wish to continue in the RFL competition , they have to abide by them and accept sanctions when they break them. Nobody, in any sport, has ever argued that a player cannot be punished for an act against the laws of the game, even if the said act is not illegal. This is exactly the same. A club who breaks an agreed rule CAN be punished by the RFL, just as a player who does the same thing on the field is.

The second analogy is similar, but in a more day to day kind of way. Imagine you are holding a party at your home. You invite a friend who gets really drunk and throws up on your best armchair. Now, your friend hasn't done anything illegal. However, you have the right to throw him/her out of your house. The RFL are the house-owners. Choose to compete in their competition and they set the rules. Break them, and they can ask you to leave.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Salford Charged with Salary Cap Breach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:41 am 
International Star
Academy Player
User avatar

Joined: Mar 19 2011
Posts: 478
nottinghamtiger wrote:There are two main arguments at play here.
1. Is the SC a restriction of trade.
I would argue that it is not. Players who play in SL have made a clear choice to do so. Players are not forced to play in SL or restricted from earning a higher salary in the NRL or in rugby union, which are comparable jobs. The opportunity to earn a higher salary elsewhere using the same skills consequently means the SC in super league is not restricting their opportunity either to be employed elsewhere, or earn a higher salary doing so.

2. The SC is illegal and unenforceable.
Again, I would argue this is not the case. This is the difference between an illegal act and a breach of contract (ie the contract that a club enters into when it agrees to be involved in RFL competitions). Essentially, any club who breaks the SC breaches it's contract with the RFL. As a result, the RFL are entitled to take action (such as imposing fines and deducting points).

I often find analogies useful and have two that would fit this situation. The first is that of the disciplinary. Players can be fined and suspended (ie punished) for actions on the field of play, but these are not illegal. However, they are the rules imposed by the RFL and if players wish to continue in the RFL competition , they have to abide by them and accept sanctions when they break them. Nobody, in any sport, has ever argued that a player cannot be punished for an act against the laws of the game, even if the said act is not illegal. This is exactly the same. A club who breaks an agreed rule CAN be punished by the RFL, just as a player who does the same thing on the field is.

The second analogy is similar, but in a more day to day kind of way. Imagine you are holding a party at your home. You invite a friend who gets really drunk and throws up on your best armchair. Now, your friend hasn't done anything illegal. However, you have the right to throw him/her out of your house. The RFL are the house-owners. Choose to compete in their competition and they set the rules. Break them, and they can ask you to leave.


Well put fella.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Salford Charged with Salary Cap Breach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:00 am 
Club Owner
Club Owner

Joined: May 24 2006
Posts: 22777
Again the question wouldn't be whether it was a restraint of trade (it undoubtedly is, but many restraints of trade exist) but whether it is a reasonable one. Is it pro-competitive in theory and practice. Is the RL market better and more beneficial because of it

In some cases you could make a very strong argument that a salary cap does benefit the market. A good example of that would be the NFL which had huge growing revenues allowing them to pay huge growing wages. Those revenues are based on selling a close and competitive league which anyone one can win. Each side is asked in a large populous and each of them open a huge new market for the league as a whole where revenues are shared between teams and players. There is healthy competition for players and space for a differential between offers.

I don't think you can make the same arguments for RL. We don't have a close competitive competition we down have huge growing revenues and wages have been less than stagnant for 15 years. Each club and it's success do not open new markets and new revenues. They aren't shared between all parties. It is not under any objective judgement procompetititve for the market as the market for top players simply doesn't exist. The best talents in SL simply do not move clubs.

I think it would need to be a very very good argument that it isn't an unreasonable restraint of trade when there are two unarguable realities in SL since the introduction of the SC. Top players earn less and move less.






//www.pngnrlbid.com

bUsTiNyAbALLs wrote:Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.


vastman wrote:My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Salford Charged with Salary Cap Breach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:06 am 
Club Coach
Club Coach
User avatar

Joined: Mar 24 2010
Posts: 15521
Location: Ossett
knockersbumpMKII wrote:An unfair condition or contract term to be allowed to remain within a competition (or club or employment) which is the lifeblood and sole reason for your existance with respect to a rugby club playing rugby under the auspices of the RFL IS unlawful (if decreed such by a court/judge)
By playing and remaining in the 'club' it does not mean you agree with the conditions/contract terms but are essentially being subjected to a form of blackmail, agree or this will happen. What would happen is Salford (or any other club) would essentially no longer exist in its current and very long standing guise.

IMHO the salary cap as it has being kept IS a restriction in trade. If the SC had increased incrementally with inflation at the barest minimum from the outset we wouldn't be in this position of effectively reducing salaries.
Part of the problem of available monies into the sport to make an increased SC more sustainable is the failure of the RFL to get enough money from sponsors and TV into the game. Even sacrificing a million pounds (& in doing so totally devaluing the headline sponsorship value of the league competition at a stroke!) in an ill thought out deal.
Also given the huge strain/demands on SL players (especially over easter) the ability to maintain a squad of players to protect players welfare woild come under scrutiny. Players time and again play through injury have injections to get through a match because not only does the coach feel forced to play them due to quality but he may not have any other options due to lack of fit players. Yes you can play kids but that in itself can impact fulfilling fixtures lower down the order.
The SC restricts any possibility of expansion/improvement (& thus is reatrictive) not just across the country but alao in retaining/accquring players within the aport be that top end talent or younger players who can't be retained or even cannot afford to keep playing due to such small salaries and.move out the sport completely.


Which is all fine in technical terms - but I guess there is a reason the biggest sports in the US have a SC that has been judged to be exempt from anti-trust laws; because the players are represented through collective bargaining with their employers and the governing body. And because a SC creates pro-competitiveness and thus, maintains spectator interest. There's a lot of research around whether a SC actually does promote those things - with the contrary results typical of economists - but I really don't see a judge wading in to overturn a well-established precedent like the SC off the back of one club caught cheating.

There is a separate argument about whether the SC as implemented by the RFL is effective in creating the things it sets out to create - and I certainly think it could be done better - but the way to achieve that is probably not through the courts; maybe an effective players union is the first step, together with some genuine digging into the actuality of the SC in its current form - because I would be willing to wager that half the clubs in SL are doing exactly what Salford are accused of doing, minus the giveaway of a brash owner who announces his intention to cheat, cheats, then upsets the people he colluded with to cheat, so they feel compelled to dob him in.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Salford Charged with Salary Cap Breach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:12 pm 
Player Coach
Player Coach
User avatar

Joined: Jun 09 2011
Posts: 10464
SmokeyTA wrote:Again the question wouldn't be whether it was a restraint of trade (it undoubtedly is, but many restraints of trade exist) but whether it is a reasonable one. Is it pro-competitive in theory and practice. Is the RL market better and more beneficial because of it

In some cases you could make a very strong argument that a salary cap does benefit the market. A good example of that would be the NFL which had huge growing revenues allowing them to pay huge growing wages. Those revenues are based on selling a close and competitive league which anyone one can win. Each side is asked in a large populous and each of them open a huge new market for the league as a whole where revenues are shared between teams and players. There is healthy competition for players and space for a differential between offers.

I don't think you can make the same arguments for RL. We don't have a close competitive competition we down have huge growing revenues and wages have been less than stagnant for 15 years. Each club and it's success do not open new markets and new revenues. They aren't shared between all parties. It is not under any objective judgement procompetititve for the market as the market for top players simply doesn't exist. The best talents in SL simply do not move clubs.

I think it would need to be a very very good argument that it isn't an unreasonable restraint of trade when there are two unarguable realities in SL since the introduction of the SC. Top players earn less and move less.


The opposite way to look at it is would an increase in salary cap, or the removal of the salary cap affect any of those issues you mention above. Without a salary cap at all players wouldn't move clubs either- because a handful of clubs would have all the money to spend whilst the rest had to make do with what was left (see Wigan circa 80s ). Would a higher or non existent salary cap encourage new players to play RL or in reality would we just be paying the same players more money. Would young British players be more likely to be involved in the sport or less likely whilst clubs bring in star names from the Southern Hemisphere or RU.
You could be right in that the salary cap doesn't promote those things-you mention above, close competition, new revenues etc etc but equally those things may not be promoted with no salary cap in place. It wasn't prior to.






the future's bright the future's claret and gold

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Salford Charged with Salary Cap Breach
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:11 pm 
Club Owner
Club Owner

Joined: May 24 2006
Posts: 22777
jools wrote:The opposite way to look at it is would an increase in salary cap, or the removal of the salary cap affect any of those issues you mention above. Without a salary cap at all players wouldn't move clubs either- because a handful of clubs would have all the money to spend whilst the rest had to make do with what was left (see Wigan circa 80s ). Would a higher or non existent salary cap encourage new players to play RL or in reality would we just be paying the same players more money. Would young British players be more likely to be involved in the sport or less likely whilst clubs bring in star names from the Southern Hemisphere or RU.
You could be right in that the salary cap doesn't promote those things-you mention above, close competition, new revenues etc etc but equally those things may not be promoted with no salary cap in place. It wasn't prior to.

Maybe so (I don't agree but....) but you do need to justify having a restraint of trade. You don't need to justify not having one.






//www.pngnrlbid.com

bUsTiNyAbALLs wrote:Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.


vastman wrote:My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.

Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 183 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19  Next





It is currently Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:28 am


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 53 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


It is currently Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:28 am
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
2m
Film game
karetaker
5328
7m
Paladin Sports
The Curtism
11
10m
Recruitment rumours and links
Or thane
3542
16m
Squad 2025
Faxlore
31
26m
New Players
Deadcowboys1
129
31m
Game - Song Titles
Wildmoggy
40594
31m
2025 Recruitment
Bullseye
171
33m
BORED The Band Name Game
Wildmoggy
63083
52m
removing posts
PopTart
7
Recent
IMG Score
Scarey71
73
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
50s
Recruitment rumours and links
Or thane
3542
58s
2025 Recruitment
Bullseye
171
1m
RIP Keith Hepworth 1942-2024
Jake the Peg
4
1m
Game - Song Titles
Wildmoggy
40594
1m
Offiah on Salary Cap
Shifty Cat
11
1m
Super League
FIL
22
1m
Transfer Talk V5
Clearwing
463
1m
Season pass roll call
Rugby Raider
30
1m
New Players
Deadcowboys1
129
1m
Rumours and signings v9
NickyKiss
28880
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
RIP Keith Hepworth 1942-2024
Jake the Peg
4
TODAY
9000 season ticket holders announced
Bombers Doub
1
TODAY
Merry Christmas
The Curtism
6
TODAY
I dont think this is a good signing for the Leopards
Huddersfield
7
TODAY
Red Devils sign International forward
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Hospitality packages including new refurbished Foxs Bar
AgbriggAmble
10
TODAY
Offiah on Salary Cap
Shifty Cat
11
TODAY
removing posts
PopTart
7
TODAY
Season pass roll call
Rugby Raider
30
TODAY
Positivity Pact
Sebasteeno
3
TODAY
Jack Coventry
Wanderer
1
TODAY
A Year to Remember
Wigg'n
3
TODAY
2025 Annual
JamieRobinso
1
TODAY
2025 KIT Thread
Sadfish
1
TODAY
NRL Kick Off Rules
stpatricks
7
TODAY
Garry Schofield
PopTart
6
TODAY
Out of contract 2025
Alffi_7
9
TODAY
Gary Schofield
hull2524
10
TODAY
Joe Phillips
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Andy Ellis
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Manoa Wacokecoke
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Jeylan Hodgson
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Mackenzie Harman
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Ben Dent
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Callum Rutland
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Harry Aldous
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Jack Aldous
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Garry Schofield
rubber ducki
14
TODAY
Lennon Bursell
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Brett Ferres
Wanderer
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
England Beat Samoa To Take Tes..
961
England's Women Demolish The W..
800
England Beat Samoa Comfortably..
1053
Operational Rules Tribunal –..
855
IMG-RFL club gradings released..
1123
Wakefield Trinity Win Champion..
1648
Hunslet Secure Promotion After..
1904
Trinity Into Play Off Final Af..
2154
Wigan Warriors Crowned Champio..
1728
York Valkyrie Win Back to Back..
1968
Hunslet Book Relegation Play O..
2434
Penrith Panthers Secure Fourth..
1874
Wigan Humiliate Leigh For Gran..
1961
Hull KR Survive Warrington Fig..
2147
Warrington Wolves Break Saints..
2280
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
2m
Film game
karetaker
5328
7m
Paladin Sports
The Curtism
11
10m
Recruitment rumours and links
Or thane
3542
16m
Squad 2025
Faxlore
31
26m
New Players
Deadcowboys1
129
31m
Game - Song Titles
Wildmoggy
40594
31m
2025 Recruitment
Bullseye
171
33m
BORED The Band Name Game
Wildmoggy
63083
52m
removing posts
PopTart
7
Recent
IMG Score
Scarey71
73
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
50s
Recruitment rumours and links
Or thane
3542
58s
2025 Recruitment
Bullseye
171
1m
RIP Keith Hepworth 1942-2024
Jake the Peg
4
1m
Game - Song Titles
Wildmoggy
40594
1m
Offiah on Salary Cap
Shifty Cat
11
1m
Super League
FIL
22
1m
Transfer Talk V5
Clearwing
463
1m
Season pass roll call
Rugby Raider
30
1m
New Players
Deadcowboys1
129
1m
Rumours and signings v9
NickyKiss
28880
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
RIP Keith Hepworth 1942-2024
Jake the Peg
4
TODAY
9000 season ticket holders announced
Bombers Doub
1
TODAY
Merry Christmas
The Curtism
6
TODAY
I dont think this is a good signing for the Leopards
Huddersfield
7
TODAY
Red Devils sign International forward
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Hospitality packages including new refurbished Foxs Bar
AgbriggAmble
10
TODAY
Offiah on Salary Cap
Shifty Cat
11
TODAY
removing posts
PopTart
7
TODAY
Season pass roll call
Rugby Raider
30
TODAY
Positivity Pact
Sebasteeno
3
TODAY
Jack Coventry
Wanderer
1
TODAY
A Year to Remember
Wigg'n
3
TODAY
2025 Annual
JamieRobinso
1
TODAY
2025 KIT Thread
Sadfish
1
TODAY
NRL Kick Off Rules
stpatricks
7
TODAY
Garry Schofield
PopTart
6
TODAY
Out of contract 2025
Alffi_7
9
TODAY
Gary Schofield
hull2524
10
TODAY
Joe Phillips
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Andy Ellis
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Manoa Wacokecoke
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Jeylan Hodgson
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Mackenzie Harman
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Ben Dent
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Callum Rutland
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Harry Aldous
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Jack Aldous
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Garry Schofield
rubber ducki
14
TODAY
Lennon Bursell
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Brett Ferres
Wanderer
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
England Beat Samoa To Take Tes..
961
England's Women Demolish The W..
800
England Beat Samoa Comfortably..
1053
Operational Rules Tribunal –..
855
IMG-RFL club gradings released..
1123
Wakefield Trinity Win Champion..
1648
Hunslet Secure Promotion After..
1904
Trinity Into Play Off Final Af..
2154
Wigan Warriors Crowned Champio..
1728
York Valkyrie Win Back to Back..
1968
Hunslet Book Relegation Play O..
2434
Penrith Panthers Secure Fourth..
1874
Wigan Humiliate Leigh For Gran..
1961
Hull KR Survive Warrington Fig..
2147
Warrington Wolves Break Saints..
2280


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!












.