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 Post subject: Re: A New Saints in RL?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:38 pm 
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Starbug wrote:Why would they need re jigging , they are already there to benifit the sport , if you have a better idea , please tell us ?

Because there may be a better way, hence me saying If the SC rules were rejigged to better benefit the heartland clubs i would be in favour of it. I have no affiliation to the current system, if it can be changed for something better then we should do it.. Personally I thought that was a fairly self-explanatory sentence.






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bUsTiNyAbALLs wrote:Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.


vastman wrote:My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Saints in RL?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:45 pm 
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Starbug wrote:So if they have enough for SL , put them in SL , that solves the problems of attracting part time players , but why should the current Championship clubs accept something that will damage their competition ?

It isnt their competition. It doesnt belong to them. At some point you really have to get over your delusions of ownership. Northampton have as much right to compete in the championships as Leigh, the competition isnt yours and Northampton arent some interlopers.

Why should anybody accept a competition which advantages some clubs and disproportionately disadvantages other clubs? Where is the integrity in a competition which has rules which stop some clubs being able to build the squads some other clubs can? A competition which favours some clubs over other is already damaged, thats what we have at the moment, a competition where the heartland clubs have the odds stacked in their favour.






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bUsTiNyAbALLs wrote:Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.


vastman wrote:My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Saints in RL?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:33 pm 
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headhunter wrote:How do you know the validity of Celtic Crusaders published attendances was any lower than any of the other clubs that year? What figures would you rather the RFL had used? Do attendance figures only count if you deem them to be acceptable?
You say that with hindsight. Leigh recently went bust, does that mean they are going to go bust again in a couple of years? Obviously circumstances change, and there's absolutely no way of knowing what could have happened, or will happen in the future. The RFL took a chance and if backfired, equally it could have succeeded and helped catapult the game to a new level.
Firstly, crowds are not the only measure of success as a club. But what evidence do you have that the crowds would be at that level?


As I said earlier , you had to be there to see the reality of the situation

Did we ? , when was that then ?

They took a chance , but unfortunatley believed their own propaganda

Crowds are not the only measure no , but they are normally the biggest actual revenue stream outside the SKY money and without that money any club is living on borrwed time






kcab sfrawdder



Luck is a combination of preparation and opportunity

Just to avoid confusion Starbug is the username of Steven Pike




SOMEBODY SAID that it couldn’t be done
But he with a chuckle replied
That “maybe it couldn’t,” but he would be one
Who wouldn’t say so till he’d tried.
So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn’t be done, and he did it!

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 Post subject: Re: A New Saints in RL?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:38 pm 
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SmokeyTA wrote:In what way do you suggest Northampton change the way they operate so they can compete for the same player pool as heartland clubs when the SC is set at a level which stops them doing so?


Well considering they currently dont exist , it isn't about changing , more about how they start , they aren't going to be competing in the same player pool are they , otherwise what would be the point of them , as surely the main point is they will expand the player pool , or so you keep telling us






kcab sfrawdder



Luck is a combination of preparation and opportunity

Just to avoid confusion Starbug is the username of Steven Pike




SOMEBODY SAID that it couldn’t be done
But he with a chuckle replied
That “maybe it couldn’t,” but he would be one
Who wouldn’t say so till he’d tried.
So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn’t be done, and he did it!

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 Post subject: Re: A New Saints in RL?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:41 pm 
International Chairman
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SmokeyTA wrote:Any SL quality juniors at Northampton will be taken by SL clubs. If you think the heartland championship clubs dont get an advantage by having SL academies producing players on their doorstep and it is 'balanced out' then you have hit a new low in your idiocy.

No, of course im not. I have no idea whatsoever what could have possibly led you to believe I was blaming championship clubs for SL clubs signing overseas players instead of local talent.


Whatever made you think we were discussing SL quality players , Northampton dont need SL quality players to compete in the Championships






kcab sfrawdder



Luck is a combination of preparation and opportunity

Just to avoid confusion Starbug is the username of Steven Pike




SOMEBODY SAID that it couldn’t be done
But he with a chuckle replied
That “maybe it couldn’t,” but he would be one
Who wouldn’t say so till he’d tried.
So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn’t be done, and he did it!

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 Post subject: Re: A New Saints in RL?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:42 pm 
International Chairman
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Posts: 33944
Location: watching out for low flying geese
SmokeyTA wrote:Because there may be a better way, hence me saying If the SC rules were rejigged to better benefit the heartland clubs i would be in favour of it. I have no affiliation to the current system, if it can be changed for something better then we should do it.. Personally I thought that was a fairly self-explanatory sentence.


There might be a better way , so away you go , explain this better way ?






kcab sfrawdder



Luck is a combination of preparation and opportunity

Just to avoid confusion Starbug is the username of Steven Pike




SOMEBODY SAID that it couldn’t be done
But he with a chuckle replied
That “maybe it couldn’t,” but he would be one
Who wouldn’t say so till he’d tried.
So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn’t be done, and he did it!

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: A New Saints in RL?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:44 pm 
International Chairman
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Joined: Mar 09 2004
Posts: 33944
Location: watching out for low flying geese
SmokeyTA wrote:It isnt their competition. It doesnt belong to them. At some point you really have to get over your delusions of ownership. Northampton have as much right to compete in the championships as Leigh, the competition isnt yours and Northampton arent some interlopers.

Why should anybody accept a competition which advantages some clubs and disproportionately disadvantages other clubs? Where is the integrity in a competition which has rules which stop some clubs being able to build the squads some other clubs can? A competition which favours some clubs over other is already damaged, thats what we have at the moment, a competition where the heartland clubs have the odds stacked in their favour.


So once again , explain your subjective totally fair system ? , for it to be fair where does any club have to finish within the league structure ?






kcab sfrawdder



Luck is a combination of preparation and opportunity

Just to avoid confusion Starbug is the username of Steven Pike




SOMEBODY SAID that it couldn’t be done
But he with a chuckle replied
That “maybe it couldn’t,” but he would be one
Who wouldn’t say so till he’d tried.
So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn’t be done, and he did it!

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: A New Saints in RL?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:12 am 
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Joined: Sep 01 2007
Posts: 1034
Location: Turin
headhunter wrote:So you agree that their failure was due to the owner and not any of the points raised in the OP.


No, Crusaders were a disaster waiting to happen from a number of standpoints and could only have "worked" if Samuel had been much richer and much more honest. It was a known that he was neither.

Quote:I wasn't suggesting that it was exactly the same situation at Wakefield, my point was that the same would happen to any club if the backer pulled out. If Davy pulled out of Huddersfield, O'Connor pulled out of Widnes etc they would go the same way as the Crusaders did, virtually no clubs are self-sustainable and so to expect that Celtic Crusaders should have been before they were allowed entry isn't really fair.


The difference is that Widnes lost a dodgy backer, had a difficult period and then get a white knight. Most SL clubs would always be rescued by somebody. Crusaders were always Samuel's personal toy and when he lost interest nobody else rich cared enough.

Cru probably didn't need to be self-sustaining but they should have been closer to it than they were.

Quote:Maybe the RFL should have been more dilligent regarding Samuel, but there was no way they could have known that he would do what he did, at the time it appeared that he was completely committed to the club. And if he had remained committed, I'm pretty sure Celtic Crusaders would be a relatively strong SL club today. The same goes for the club when they were based in Wrexham.


This is BS. It is not a question of being wise after the event, it was completely predictable that he would act as he did. He had done so before.

Crusaders probably would be a "strong" team today if Samuel had been willing and able to lose a couple of million a year, but he wasn't and so this meaningless.

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 Post subject: Re: A New Saints in RL?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:15 am 
Player Coach
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Joined: Sep 01 2007
Posts: 1034
Location: Turin
SmokeyTA wrote:It isnt their competition. It doesnt belong to them. At some point you really have to get over your delusions of ownership. Northampton have as much right to compete in the championships as Leigh, the competition isnt yours and Northampton arent some interlopers.

Why should anybody accept a competition which advantages some clubs and disproportionately disadvantages other clubs? Where is the integrity in a competition which has rules which stop some clubs being able to build the squads some other clubs can? A competition which favours some clubs over other is already damaged, thats what we have at the moment, a competition where the heartland clubs have the odds stacked in their favour.


The point of the salary cap is to prevent clubs bankrupting themselves. Expansion clubs typically have smaller incomes than trad clubs. How does it make sense to take away the financial protection from those sides who need it most?

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 Post subject: Re: A New Saints in RL?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:58 am 
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Posts: 17226
Location: South Wales
Hedgehog King wrote:No, Crusaders were a disaster waiting to happen from a number of standpoints and could only have "worked" if Samuel had been much richer and much more honest. It was a known that he was neither.

The difference is that Widnes lost a dodgy backer, had a difficult period and then get a white knight. Most SL clubs would always be rescued by somebody. Crusaders were always Samuel's personal toy and when he lost interest nobody else rich cared enough.

Cru probably didn't need to be self-sustaining but they should have been closer to it than they were.

This is BS. It is not a question of being wise after the event, it was completely predictable that he would act as he did. He had done so before.

Crusaders probably would be a "strong" team today if Samuel had been willing and able to lose a couple of million a year, but he wasn't and so this meaningless.
Where have I suggested anything to the contrary? My point was that none of the issues raised in the OP had anything to do with the failure of Crusaders, and you appear to have agreed with this 100%. It was not 'completely predictable' that Samuel would walk away, I can't recall a single person raising that issue at the time and unless you are claiming that you have the ability to see into the future then there's absolutely no way you can suggest that you knew Samuel would pull out for certain. If it was 'completely predictable' from the start, then the RFL clearly would not have allowed Crusaders into Super League. Suggesting that they should have been 'more self-sustaining' is just ridiculous, it wouldn't have made any difference as your post implies. Virtually all clubs rely on backers, and virtually all clubs would go the way of the Crusaders if their backers pulled out.

FWIW, Crusaders were rescued, you must have missed the two seasons they spent in Wrexham? Unfortunaltely for them, the new owners were just as bad as Samuel. But again, at the time there was no way of knowing that.






King Street Cat wrote:Some might look at this as being harsh but I think it's fair. When are the Rugby League going to stop persisting with this fantasy expansion. If it hasn't worked by now, it never will! I'm all for reaching out to a wider audience with our game but not at the expense of historical clubs in the homelands.

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