Joined: Feb 20 2002 Posts: 1437 Location: Leigh, where else?
If Jeremy Corbyn had stuck with his true convictions and campaigned against the E.U, arguing a left wing stance for leaving, perhaps the party would be in pole position to sweep up lost voters.
As it is he pandered to the Blairites and went against his own beliefs and now they want to stab him in the back because they still don't realise the average British worker is anti-E.U and anti free movement of workers.
When did the 'left' decide people having to tout themselves across the continent looking for work was a good thing? In the 80's they fought to keep jobs in local communities and it was Tory's like Norman Tebbit who said 'worker's should get on their bikes and look for work'. Why do Labour and the left in general support Thatcherite philosophy?
"If the American people knew tonight, exactly how the monetary and banking system worked, there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
-Abraham Lincoln
Joined: Jan 30 2005 Posts: 7152 Location: one day closer to death
I've said for years Labour have lost touch not only with their traditional supporters, but also the new generations of potential Labourites. They try to be everything to everyone but by diluting and confusing their message end up being very little to anyone.
The traditional working class supporter base, for the most, voted Brexit. This was obvious from the start, the only question was would that vote be...er...outvoted. A Euro-sceptic leader reluctantly campaigning for Remain was a farce. I'd have had more respect if he'd stuck to his values.
Labour is in a worse mess than 2014. They need to understand the Unions are long dead and their 'traditional' support now have minds of their own. They can, and will - and have - vote on what concerns them - not just because 'me dad woz Labour'.
LeighGionaire wrote:As it is he pandered to the Blairites and went against his own beliefs and now they want to stab him in the back because they still don't realise the average British worker is anti-E.U and anti free movement of workers.
I know that Leave voters are prone to mad statements, conspiracy theories, and demonstrable nonsense, but let's just clear one thing up: the majority of people in jobs voted Remain - by quite a margin. That's both fulltime and part-time jobs. See attached poll: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/ho ... d-and-why/
The majority of who don't work voted Leave. That's overwhelmingly retired people.
The "average British Worker", therefore, is a remain supporter who is horrified because the average British pensioner, having benefitted from the full employment, cheap housing, funded welfare state and full pensions of the post-war settlement, has just shafted the "average British worker" with his mortgage and bills, and the average British worker's kids, with their Uni fees zero-hours contracts and impossibly high rents, right up the backside.
This vote has some very clear correlations: the older you are, the more likely you voted Leave less well-educated you are, the more likely you voted Leave. The less economically active you are, the more likely you voted leave. This outcome is the old, the ignorant and the non-working imposing an economic catastrophe on the young, the working and the educated.
Bloody reality, eh?
LeighGionaire wrote:As it is he pandered to the Blairites and went against his own beliefs and now they want to stab him in the back because they still don't realise the average British worker is anti-E.U and anti free movement of workers.
I know that Leave voters are prone to mad statements, conspiracy theories, and demonstrable nonsense, but let's just clear one thing up: the majority of people in jobs voted Remain - by quite a margin. That's both fulltime and part-time jobs. See attached poll: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/ho ... d-and-why/
The majority of who don't work voted Leave. That's overwhelmingly retired people.
The "average British Worker", therefore, is a remain supporter who is horrified because the average British pensioner, having benefitted from the full employment, cheap housing, funded welfare state and full pensions of the post-war settlement, has just shafted the "average British worker" with his mortgage and bills, and the average British worker's kids, with their Uni fees zero-hours contracts and impossibly high rents, right up the backside.
This vote has some very clear correlations: the older you are, the more likely you voted Leave less well-educated you are, the more likely you voted Leave. The less economically active you are, the more likely you voted leave. This outcome is the old, the ignorant and the non-working imposing an economic catastrophe on the young, the working and the educated.
Bloody reality, eh?
"...the biggest boor, the most opinionated pompous bigot that frequents these
boards and he is NOT to be taken at all seriously. "
Joined: Feb 20 2002 Posts: 1437 Location: Leigh, where else?
Roy Haggerty wrote:I know that Leave voters are prone to mad statements, conspiracy theories, and demonstrable nonsense, but let's just clear one thing up: the majority of people in jobs voted Remain - by quite a margin. That's both fulltime and part-time jobs. See attached poll: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/ho ... d-and-why/
The majority of who don't work voted Leave. That's overwhelmingly retired people.
The "average British Worker", therefore, is a remain supporter who is horrified because the average British pensioner, having benefitted from the full employment, cheap housing, funded welfare state and full pensions of the post-war settlement, has just shafted the "average British worker" with his mortgage and bills, and the average British worker's kids, with their Uni fees zero-hours contracts and impossibly high rents, right up the backside.
This vote has some very clear correlations: the older you are, the more likely you voted Leave less well-educated you are, the more likely you voted Leave. The less economically active you are, the more likely you voted leave. This outcome is the old, the ignorant and the non-working imposing an economic catastrophe on the young, the working and the educated.
Bloody reality, eh?
Perhaps I should have said the "average LOW PAID worker" voted leave. Study's have shown that the lower paid lose out under free movement of Labour - "UK studies find that immigration has small impact on average wages but more significant impacts along the wage distribution: low-waged workers lose while medium and high-paid workers gain" http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.u ... mmigration
So if the majority of workers voted to stay as you claim we can assume it was the medium/high paid workers who selfishly wanted to maintain the status quo, whilst the majority of low paid workers who's wages are adversely affected by the free movement of Labour wanted out. Just looking at the map of the U.K clearly shows all Labour's traditional heartlands, bar inner London and Scotland (who appear to have defected en masse to the SNP), wanted to leave.
As for the young being all for the E.U, l'm pretty sure their sentiment would change if they lived in Greece and saw first hand how the young are being royally screwed over by the E.U and their bankster allies. 50% youth unemployment and being asset stripped while the E.U refuses to let them declare bankruptcy.
The E.U is a neo-liberal super state that uses free movement of labour to drive down wages. Labour will never be relevant again until they acknowledge this fact.
Roy Haggerty wrote:I know that Leave voters are prone to mad statements, conspiracy theories, and demonstrable nonsense, but let's just clear one thing up: the majority of people in jobs voted Remain - by quite a margin. That's both fulltime and part-time jobs. See attached poll: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/ho ... d-and-why/
The majority of who don't work voted Leave. That's overwhelmingly retired people.
The "average British Worker", therefore, is a remain supporter who is horrified because the average British pensioner, having benefitted from the full employment, cheap housing, funded welfare state and full pensions of the post-war settlement, has just shafted the "average British worker" with his mortgage and bills, and the average British worker's kids, with their Uni fees zero-hours contracts and impossibly high rents, right up the backside.
This vote has some very clear correlations: the older you are, the more likely you voted Leave less well-educated you are, the more likely you voted Leave. The less economically active you are, the more likely you voted leave. This outcome is the old, the ignorant and the non-working imposing an economic catastrophe on the young, the working and the educated.
Bloody reality, eh?
Perhaps I should have said the "average LOW PAID worker" voted leave. Study's have shown that the lower paid lose out under free movement of Labour - "UK studies find that immigration has small impact on average wages but more significant impacts along the wage distribution: low-waged workers lose while medium and high-paid workers gain" http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.u ... mmigration
So if the majority of workers voted to stay as you claim we can assume it was the medium/high paid workers who selfishly wanted to maintain the status quo, whilst the majority of low paid workers who's wages are adversely affected by the free movement of Labour wanted out. Just looking at the map of the U.K clearly shows all Labour's traditional heartlands, bar inner London and Scotland (who appear to have defected en masse to the SNP), wanted to leave.
As for the young being all for the E.U, l'm pretty sure their sentiment would change if they lived in Greece and saw first hand how the young are being royally screwed over by the E.U and their bankster allies. 50% youth unemployment and being asset stripped while the E.U refuses to let them declare bankruptcy.
The E.U is a neo-liberal super state that uses free movement of labour to drive down wages. Labour will never be relevant again until they acknowledge this fact.
"If the American people knew tonight, exactly how the monetary and banking system worked, there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
-Abraham Lincoln
I grew up in a small town called Golborne, it's an area that you could stick a red rose on a monkey and they'd vote for it, from being a young lad growing up in the 80's it has gradually declined and in all honesty it was never great at its peak. How have Labour ever repaid such blind loyalty to Golborne? They haven't, they have just watched it decline year on year, Thatcher closed the mine down rubber stamping the fact Tories will never be elected there and Labour have used that and taken the "I$$ out it. We only vote Labour in that area because of the hate for conservatives but Labour seem to think we agree with them and their policies, the truth is they stopped believing in them when Blair was in charge, no party will sway opinion there, Corbyn could have drove there knocked on every door with tea and biscuits and he wouldn't have changed a single mind.
Wire Yed wrote:I grew up in a small town called Golborne, it's an area that you could stick a red rose on a monkey and they'd vote for it, from being a young lad growing up in the 80's it has gradually declined and in all honesty it was never great at its peak. How have Labour ever repaid such blind loyalty to Golborne? They haven't, they have just watched it decline year on year, Thatcher closed the mine down rubber stamping the fact Tories will never be elected there and Labour have used that and taken the "I$$ out it. We only vote Labour in that area because of the hate for conservatives but Labour seem to think we agree with them and their policies, the truth is they stopped believing in them when Blair was in charge, no party will sway opinion there, Corbyn could have drove there knocked on every door with tea and biscuits and he wouldn't have changed a single mind.
As Andy Burnham stated a couple of weeks ago
" too much Hampstead , not enough Hull " in reference to Labour priorities
As I have said on here for years and on Twitter to most of the Labour leadership - Labour represents nobody and nothing. It has reaped what if has sown in Scotland and is now doing so in England. They are a bunch of stupid people. The comments before I went to bed last night from their spokespeople were frankly incredible. They don't seem to have any idea. They still refer to "our" voters and effectively then blame those voters. They ain't got any voters they have to earn votes by espousing something credible and coherent and not jus PC claptrap. That though is something they just don't get. They are an utter disgrace to Britain, its people and their party's fine history.
Last edited by Dally on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
LeighGionaire wrote:Perhaps I should have said the "average LOW PAID worker" voted leave. Study's have shown that the lower paid lose out under free movement of Labour - "UK studies find that immigration has small impact on average wages but more significant impacts along the wage distribution: low-waged workers lose while medium and high-paid workers gain" http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.u ... mmigration
So if the majority of workers voted to stay as you claim we can assume it was the medium/high paid workers who selfishly wanted to maintain the status quo, whilst the majority of low paid workers who's wages are adversely affected by the free movement of Labour wanted out. Just looking at the map of the U.K clearly shows all Labour's traditional heartlands, bar inner London and Scotland (who appear to have defected en masse to the SNP), wanted to leave.
As for the young being all for the E.U, l'm pretty sure their sentiment would change if they lived in Greece and saw first hand how the young are being royally screwed over by the E.U and their bankster allies. 50% youth unemployment and being asset stripped while the E.U refuses to let them declare bankruptcy.
The E.U is a neo-liberal super state that uses free movement of labour to drive down wages. Labour will never be relevant again until they acknowledge this fact.
Again, I'm just going to take issue with another growing myth here, which is the "only London and Scotland voted Remain". This is based on a map circulating on social media showing the whole country Blue except London and Scotland. It is, unfortunately, rubbish.
Birmingham was 50-50, essentially. Its suburbs were strongly Leave. Liverpool, Manchester, Norwich, Bristol, Gloucester, Newcastle, Leicester, Leeds, York, Brighton, Exeter, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Cambridge and Oxford all voted Remain. There's a map circulating social media right now which is very misleading as it ups it to regional level, and rubs out the cities. Essentially, the Cities voted Remain. The suburbs, towns and most of the shores voted Leave. There were also large swathes of the SouthEast commuter corridors which were Remain, from mid-Kent across to Gloucestershire and from up to Cambridge down into Hampshire, plus some sizable slices of Cumbria and Yorkshire.
Produce a map of local authority areas, as opposed to regions, and it's a much more complex picture. And I'm going nowhere near Northern Ireland.
I don't disagree that low-pay immigration hurts low-pay British workers. It seems to me that the evidence for that is fairly clear. What I don't understand is why those same low-paid workers thought that the way to solve this problem was to vote for a campaign led by people who are the leading enthusiasts for low-paid immigrant Labour - Gove and Johnson - rather than electing a Labour Government which might enforce a more rigid minimum wage. As ever, the real answer to low pay is legislation and regulation, not futile attempts to keep out immigrants. I say futile for two reasons: firstly because business wants cheap Labour, and so they'll seek to get it no matter what, as long as they can get away with paying below minimum wage; and secondly, because we already have "control" over non-EU immigration, yet we have more non-EU immigrants than EU immigrants. Leaving the EU will do nothing for immigration numbers per se.
What WILL affect immigrant numbers is the recession which we're about to undergo as a result of this decision, the final collapse of manufacturing as companies relocate inside the EU, and the decline of the City and all the jobs supporting it, as Frankfurt slaps a tax on financial transactions outside the EU. This vote has completely screwed our entire economy. You'll have a hint about that from what's happened in the financial news today. So lots and lots more people are going to be unemployed and on very low pay. But hey, at least fewer Poles will come, because their economy will be doing better inside the EU than ours is doing outside it.
Today we've seen the only case of a democracy voting against its economic self-interest that I can find in the whole of history. And I'm an economic historian, so take my word for that.
LeighGionaire wrote:Perhaps I should have said the "average LOW PAID worker" voted leave. Study's have shown that the lower paid lose out under free movement of Labour - "UK studies find that immigration has small impact on average wages but more significant impacts along the wage distribution: low-waged workers lose while medium and high-paid workers gain" http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.u ... mmigration
So if the majority of workers voted to stay as you claim we can assume it was the medium/high paid workers who selfishly wanted to maintain the status quo, whilst the majority of low paid workers who's wages are adversely affected by the free movement of Labour wanted out. Just looking at the map of the U.K clearly shows all Labour's traditional heartlands, bar inner London and Scotland (who appear to have defected en masse to the SNP), wanted to leave.
As for the young being all for the E.U, l'm pretty sure their sentiment would change if they lived in Greece and saw first hand how the young are being royally screwed over by the E.U and their bankster allies. 50% youth unemployment and being asset stripped while the E.U refuses to let them declare bankruptcy.
The E.U is a neo-liberal super state that uses free movement of labour to drive down wages. Labour will never be relevant again until they acknowledge this fact.
Again, I'm just going to take issue with another growing myth here, which is the "only London and Scotland voted Remain". This is based on a map circulating on social media showing the whole country Blue except London and Scotland. It is, unfortunately, rubbish.
Birmingham was 50-50, essentially. Its suburbs were strongly Leave. Liverpool, Manchester, Norwich, Bristol, Gloucester, Newcastle, Leicester, Leeds, York, Brighton, Exeter, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Cambridge and Oxford all voted Remain. There's a map circulating social media right now which is very misleading as it ups it to regional level, and rubs out the cities. Essentially, the Cities voted Remain. The suburbs, towns and most of the shores voted Leave. There were also large swathes of the SouthEast commuter corridors which were Remain, from mid-Kent across to Gloucestershire and from up to Cambridge down into Hampshire, plus some sizable slices of Cumbria and Yorkshire.
Produce a map of local authority areas, as opposed to regions, and it's a much more complex picture. And I'm going nowhere near Northern Ireland.
I don't disagree that low-pay immigration hurts low-pay British workers. It seems to me that the evidence for that is fairly clear. What I don't understand is why those same low-paid workers thought that the way to solve this problem was to vote for a campaign led by people who are the leading enthusiasts for low-paid immigrant Labour - Gove and Johnson - rather than electing a Labour Government which might enforce a more rigid minimum wage. As ever, the real answer to low pay is legislation and regulation, not futile attempts to keep out immigrants. I say futile for two reasons: firstly because business wants cheap Labour, and so they'll seek to get it no matter what, as long as they can get away with paying below minimum wage; and secondly, because we already have "control" over non-EU immigration, yet we have more non-EU immigrants than EU immigrants. Leaving the EU will do nothing for immigration numbers per se.
What WILL affect immigrant numbers is the recession which we're about to undergo as a result of this decision, the final collapse of manufacturing as companies relocate inside the EU, and the decline of the City and all the jobs supporting it, as Frankfurt slaps a tax on financial transactions outside the EU. This vote has completely screwed our entire economy. You'll have a hint about that from what's happened in the financial news today. So lots and lots more people are going to be unemployed and on very low pay. But hey, at least fewer Poles will come, because their economy will be doing better inside the EU than ours is doing outside it.
Today we've seen the only case of a democracy voting against its economic self-interest that I can find in the whole of history. And I'm an economic historian, so take my word for that.
"...the biggest boor, the most opinionated pompous bigot that frequents these
boards and he is NOT to be taken at all seriously. "
Joined: Apr 06 2004 Posts: 4420 Location: The Pavilion, Hilton St
Roy Haggerty wrote:What WILL affect immigrant numbers is the recession which we're about to undergo as a result of this decision, the final collapse of manufacturing as companies relocate inside the EU, and the decline of the City and all the jobs supporting it, as Frankfurt slaps a tax on financial transactions outside the EU. This vote has completely screwed our entire economy. You'll have a hint about that from what's happened in the financial news today. So lots and lots more people are going to be unemployed and on very low pay. But hey, at least fewer Poles will come, because their economy will be doing better inside the EU than ours is doing outside it.
Today we've seen the only case of a democracy voting against its economic self-interest that I can find in the whole of history. And I'm an economic historian, so take my word for that.
I think that the remainder of the EU will take a hit because of us leaving. Losing such a powerful economy will hurt it. It would be in their best interest to trade with us with as few restrictions as possible. That's if it even survives the next couple of years. More countries may push for leave.
I was always going to vote for leave so the economic/immigration arguments over the last few weeks haven't swayed me. I partly voted with heart over head, there may be a period of economic uncertainty but at least we will be free and democratic(ish).
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