This article in The Observer http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/nov/01/cutting-energy-bills-oldham-passivhaus sort of explains everything, two houses in Oldham, one of the type that almost everyone will live in with energy costs of £500 per quarter and another with heating costs of £20 per year - because its been built that way, its a "passivhaus" and controls air flow within the building using the heat generated by its residents to warm up incoming fresh air with the result that you don't need extra energy to maintain the temperature.
It would be nice to retrofit every house with the technology that makes a new-build a passivhaus but in simple terms you need the heat exchanger, air ducting, a tightly sealed house, and then the will to make it work, no point in going to all that trouble and expense and then leaving the back door or a window open any longer than absolutely necessary on any day when the outside temperature is lower than your desired internal temperature (most days of the year then), and there is little to be gained if like our house you have a female (or several) who seem to be continually cold and require the house temperature to be something akin to the tropical house of a zoo.
Being guilty of working in the building industry in the 1970s I of course know all there is to know about how NOT to build a house which is adequately prepared for a British inclement day whether it be a howling winter snowstorm of even just a dull chilled summers day, if you were lucky you might have got one inch of glass fibre in your loft in those 1970s council houses, more likely none at all and in a strange twist of fate those that now live in what were experimental council houses in South Tyneside and who have internal walls made of compressed straw (yes, true), are probably quite snug now, purely by accident of course.
Food for thought but other than retrofit cavity insulation (a topic which architects still quibble over), topping up your loft insulation and spending money on a condensing boiler there doesn't seem to be much advice around on how to heat your home on a low budget and keep that budget low in a "normal" house, certainly nothing like the sort of advice that the Passivhaus people seem to want to sell to you (theres a lack of advice on their web site other than to buy their books).
Like lobbying for the "Green Tax" element to be lifted from fuel bills could the energy companies be quite happy to keep the houses of the UK cold and draughty ?
This article in The Observer http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/nov/01/cutting-energy-bills-oldham-passivhaus sort of explains everything, two houses in Oldham, one of the type that almost everyone will live in with energy costs of £500 per quarter and another with heating costs of £20 per year - because its been built that way, its a "passivhaus" and controls air flow within the building using the heat generated by its residents to warm up incoming fresh air with the result that you don't need extra energy to maintain the temperature.
It would be nice to retrofit every house with the technology that makes a new-build a passivhaus but in simple terms you need the heat exchanger, air ducting, a tightly sealed house, and then the will to make it work, no point in going to all that trouble and expense and then leaving the back door or a window open any longer than absolutely necessary on any day when the outside temperature is lower than your desired internal temperature (most days of the year then), and there is little to be gained if like our house you have a female (or several) who seem to be continually cold and require the house temperature to be something akin to the tropical house of a zoo.
Being guilty of working in the building industry in the 1970s I of course know all there is to know about how NOT to build a house which is adequately prepared for a British inclement day whether it be a howling winter snowstorm of even just a dull chilled summers day, if you were lucky you might have got one inch of glass fibre in your loft in those 1970s council houses, more likely none at all and in a strange twist of fate those that now live in what were experimental council houses in South Tyneside and who have internal walls made of compressed straw (yes, true), are probably quite snug now, purely by accident of course.
Food for thought but other than retrofit cavity insulation (a topic which architects still quibble over), topping up your loft insulation and spending money on a condensing boiler there doesn't seem to be much advice around on how to heat your home on a low budget and keep that budget low in a "normal" house, certainly nothing like the sort of advice that the Passivhaus people seem to want to sell to you (theres a lack of advice on their web site other than to buy their books).
Like lobbying for the "Green Tax" element to be lifted from fuel bills could the energy companies be quite happy to keep the houses of the UK cold and draughty ?
Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece ---------------------------------------------------------- Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork ---------------------------------------------------------- JerryChicken - The Blog ----------------------------------------------------------
Post subject: Re: Passivhaus, and how to achieve one
Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:49 pm
Standee
In The Arms of 13 Angels
Joined: Apr 03 2003 Posts: 37503
JerryChicken wrote:Food for thought but other than retrofit cavity insulation (a topic which architects still quibble over), topping up your loft insulation and spending money on a condensing boiler there doesn't seem to be much advice around on how to heat your home on a low budget and keep that budget low in a "normal" house, certainly nothing like the sort of advice that the Passivhaus people seem to want to sell to you (theres a lack of advice on their web site other than to buy their books).
Like lobbying for the "Green Tax" element to be lifted from fuel bills could the energy companies be quite happy to keep the houses of the UK cold and draughty ?
Sorry, but there is LOTS of information about heating and insulating your home, in fact there are quite significant funds available for insulation and the like.
The problem is, you have to go and get it, it doesn't come and get you (sorry about that, but it's called personal responsibility)
Post subject: Re: Passivhaus, and how to achieve one
Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:37 pm
JerryChicken
International Star
Joined: Jul 09 2012 Posts: 3605 Location: Leeds
Standee wrote:Sorry, but there is LOTS of information about heating and insulating your home, in fact there are quite significant funds available for insulation and the like.
The problem is, you have to go and get it, it doesn't come and get you (sorry about that, but it's called personal responsibility)
Actually it does come and get you, I get fekkin pestered on the phone almost every week by scavenging "grant" companies eager to grab a commission for "sending around a surveyor", they focus on cavity wall insulation (got), loft insulation under 4" (got more), double glazing to "new" standards (no problem with the double glazing I have) and replacement efficient central heating boilers (got one last year), in fact the onyl good thing to come out of my wifes period of unemployment a few years back is that we got the cavity wall and loft insulation done for free.
But that isn't what the topic is about.
Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece ---------------------------------------------------------- Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork ---------------------------------------------------------- JerryChicken - The Blog ----------------------------------------------------------
Post subject: Re: Passivhaus, and how to achieve one
Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:27 pm
Him
International Board Member
Joined: Jun 19 2002 Posts: 14970 Location: Campaigning for a deep attacking line
Standee wrote:Sorry, but there is LOTS of information about heating and insulating your home, in fact there are quite significant funds available for insulation and the like.
The problem is, you have to go and get it, it doesn't come and get you (sorry about that, but it's called personal responsibility)
Very nice. Now how do you afford it? The government ended the CERT scheme late last year. Now only people in receipt of certain benefits can get free insulation. One would also ask how much information is available to people who don't have internet access. If you can afford it the Green Deal scheme will pay for half the insulation costs, how many people have £250 easily available? Plus you have to pay around £100 for an initial assessment to even see if you qualify for the scheme, something which, no doubt, would put people off from applying. Also if you're a tenant, in Council housing or a Housing Association you're not eligible.
To suggest its easy and is simply a lack of "personal responsibility" is a typical, arrogant, patronising, right-wing response to a problem.
Post subject: Re: Passivhaus, and how to achieve one
Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:07 pm
JerryChicken
International Star
Joined: Jul 09 2012 Posts: 3605 Location: Leeds
Him wrote:Very nice. Now how do you afford it? The government ended the CERT scheme late last year. Now only people in receipt of certain benefits can get free insulation. One would also ask how much information is available to people who don't have internet access. If you can afford it the Green Deal scheme will pay for half the insulation costs, how many people have £250 easily available? Plus you have to pay around £100 for an initial assessment to even see if you qualify for the scheme, something which, no doubt, would put people off from applying. Also if you're a tenant, in Council housing or a Housing Association you're not eligible.
To suggest its easy and is simply a lack of "personal responsibility" is a typical, arrogant, patronising, right-wing response to a problem.
Miller Insulation were the chosen contractor at the time we had the cavity wall done, I've always had the suspicion that had we not had ours done for free and I had called their local office for a quote, it would have been cheaper than involving the fee earner who then introduced Millers in the first place, subsidy or no subsidy.
Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece ---------------------------------------------------------- Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork ---------------------------------------------------------- JerryChicken - The Blog ----------------------------------------------------------
Post subject: Re: Passivhaus, and how to achieve one
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:55 am
El Barbudo
In The Arms of 13 Angels
Joined: Feb 26 2002 Posts: 14522 Location: Online
There may be advice out there but in my extensive trawls to find out whether my home is even suitable for cavity wall insulation only leaves me with two opinions so far.
Opinion 1. You need cavity wall insulation, it's absolutely fine and we will come out and have a look, it'll cost you. Opinion 2. Ooh no, your house is way too old and putting cavity wall insulation into such a house will actually make it damp as the cavities are an air-gap that keeps it dry.
I want to believe Opinion 1 and would be willing to pay for it to be done but Opinion 2 puts me off, I don't want to spend a small fortune on something that is going to ruin the place.
As the topic has arisen, I wonder if anyone can offer another opinion?
Built 1898, the house has cavity throughout between a stone outer wall and brick inner wall, has no "modern" wall ties but the walls are tied by some of the stones from the outer wall protruding-back-and-mortared-into the brick inner wall. I have already insulated the attic (there is no loft) by putting Kingspan between the rafters and by insulating the dwarf walls and gable-ends with a similar product to Kingspan but with a plasterboard facing, attached by dab-and-stick. It's well toasty up there and no sign of damp. The house is also now part-double-glazed.
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Post subject: Re: Passivhaus, and how to achieve one
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:02 am
JerryChicken
International Star
Joined: Jul 09 2012 Posts: 3605 Location: Leeds
El Barbudo wrote:As the topic has arisen, I wonder if anyone can offer another opinion?
Built 1898, the house has cavity throughout between a stone outer wall and brick inner wall, has no "modern" wall ties but the walls are tied by some of the stones from the outer wall protruding-back-and-mortared-into the brick inner wall. I have already insulated the attic by putting Kingspan between the rafters. Also, dwarf walls and gable-ends in the attic (i.e. there is no loft) are insulated by a similar product to KIngspan but with a plasterboard facing, attached by dab-and-stick. It's well toasty up there and no sign of damp. The house is also now part-double-glazed.
You've got another problem too, your house will probably have open fireplaces and chimneys and if they are "live" then you've got a natural warm air extractor in each room, AND you'll need to have some method of replacing that air to keep the process flowing unless you want to suffocate yourself - back in the day houses like yours leaked air in through doors and windows without the need for air vents but sealing them up with upvc replacements tends to spoil that, its also an important point with internal central heating boilers that there is a legal requirement for specific sized air vents into the room in which they stand, which in my experience (when we had one) tend to change at every maintenance visit.
The issue of damp and cavity wall insulation even in to newer houses is one that I have heard from many architects.
Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece ---------------------------------------------------------- Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork ---------------------------------------------------------- JerryChicken - The Blog ----------------------------------------------------------
Post subject: Re: Passivhaus, and how to achieve one
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:41 am
Mintball
All Time Great
Joined: May 10 2002 Posts: 47951 Location: Die Metropole
JerryChicken wrote:... its also an important point with internal central heating boilers that there is a legal requirement for specific sized air vents into the room in which they stand, which in my experience (when we had one) tend to change at every maintenance visit...
Ah, but it's your personal responsibility to know which one is correct.
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Post subject: Re: Passivhaus, and how to achieve one
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:34 am
JerryChicken
International Star
Joined: Jul 09 2012 Posts: 3605 Location: Leeds
Mintball wrote:Ah, but it's your personal responsibility to know which one is correct.
I now check once a week to see whether any new gas regulations have been introduced so that I comply, it means hacking the confidential engineers page on the British Gas web site but its worth breaking the law to make sure I stay within the law and don't inadvertently carbon monoxide myself.
Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece ---------------------------------------------------------- Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork ---------------------------------------------------------- JerryChicken - The Blog ----------------------------------------------------------
Post subject: Re: Passivhaus, and how to achieve one
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:02 am
DaveO
Moderator
Joined: Dec 22 2001 Posts: 14395 Location: Chester
The idea of the passivhaus type of build or just building new houses with solar panels and ground sourced heat pumps and under floor heating seems a no briner to me. As is makingit easy for people in older houses to adapt them where possible to use such technologies.
The thing that caught my eye in that Guardian article was the positive effects of removing people from fuel poverty has on their health which in turn saves the NHS money.
One mile away in Fitton Hill, Oldham council, a large housing group and Oldham NHS Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG) are investing £200,000 between them to retro-fit 1,000 cold homes with new boilers and exterior insulation. The health service calculates it will save £300,000 a year in reduced hospital admissions and social costs, and the council hopes each household will save around £450 a year. Each home also draws on energy company green levy money.
"Oldham is a cold town. It has got poorer health than most of the country. There's not much money about. Around one in five, or 20,000 homes here, are in fuel poverty," says Alan Higgins, director of Oldham council public health.
"We think each person lifted out of fuel poverty will save the health service about £250 a year. Data suggests there are 20% more deaths in Oldham in winter than in summer because of extra respiratory illnesses and heart problems [linked to cold homes]. If you get a cold winter and people cannot heat their homes, you get more people turning up in A&E and suffering."
This is why it ought not to be simply a matter of personal responsibility to arrange to have this kind of thing done to your house (and many can't because they don't own the house anyway). A bit of planning, large scale deployment of such schemes to benefit from economies of scale could really end up saving us a lot of money as well as improving the health of many people.
The trouble is this kind of joined up thinking seems alien to governments particularly those who think market forces rule everything.
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