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The Tories & Europe
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Author:  Dally [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  The Tories & Europe
Are we perhaps, after all these years, on the verge of the Tories splitting over Europe? Can the PM, who seems to be a figure of ridicule in his party (and elsewhere) hold things together? What is his stance - one minute talking tough, the next saying there's no way an "in / out" referendum should be held? Are we approaching their SDP moment or will they hold it together?
Author:  sally cinnamon [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Tories & Europe
Well we have Ted Heath to thank for taking us into the EEC in the first place and Margaret Thatcher for taking us into the Exchange Rate Mechanism so Cameron has big shoes to fill in terms of enhancing the power of Brussels over the UK.
Author:  Dally [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Tories & Europe
sally cinnamon wrote:Well we have Ted Heath to thank for taking us into the EEC in the first place and Margaret Thatcher for taking us into the Exchange Rate Mechanism so Cameron has big shoes to fill in terms of enhancing the power of Brussels over the UK.


I agree. So why all the ridiculous and tortuous posturing for the benefit of his party? It's the biggest issue in British politics and one that never has been and never will get discussed and dealt with properly.
Author:  Cookridge_Rhino [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Tories & Europe
Dally wrote:I agree. So why all the ridiculous and tortuous posturing for the benefit of his party? It's the biggest issue in British politics and one that never has been and never will get discussed and dealt with properly.

Because almost all politicians from major parties agree the country would be better off in the EU, however a lot of the population have been mislead by parts of the media into thinking Brussels is trying to ban straight bananas, and give all terrorists/criminals/singlemothers/you get the idea, a big house to live in because its their human right.
Author:  Dally [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Tories & Europe
Cookridge_Rhino wrote:Because almost all politicians from major parties agree the country would be better off in the EU, however a lot of the population have been mislead by parts of the media into thinking Brussels is trying to ban straight bananas, and give all terrorists/criminals/singlemothers/you get the idea, a big house to live in because its their human right.


Nothing to do with the enormous amount it costs the country nor the huge economic drag it exerts on us? Nothing to do with the fact that we are geographically a fringe area and like all fringe areas will become an impoverished irrelevance over time? Then again there are those misled by sections of the press and self-serving, mindless elements of the politcal class into thinking there is no viable alternative to membership.
Author:  Cookridge_Rhino [ Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Tories & Europe
Dally wrote:Nothing to do with the enormous amount it costs the country nor the huge economic drag it exerts on us? Nothing to do with the fact that we are geographically a fringe area and like all fringe areas will become an impoverished irrelevance over time? Then again there are those misled by sections of the press and self-serving, mindless elements of the politcal class into thinking there is no viable alternative to membership.

I completely disagree that membership of the EU is a net drag on our economy. My point was that there is a huge disconnect between the opinions of the politicians (of all three major parties), and of the population. That is why there is a lot of posturing, and that is why I can't imagine the Europe issue getting solved anytime soon. All the parties feel like they need to offer a referendum in order to win votes, but they are all worried if they give the people a choice they will choose the 'wrong' option.

My point about the media was that like it or not, we are living in a country where most people decide how to vote on things like referenda, not based on an objective look at the facts and implications of their choice. But instead based on a quick glance at the options and which side has the catchiest slogan (slightly simplifying there but its not far from the truth).

I'm not a big fan of a lot of MP's, and there needs to be better systems in place to stop them basing their decisions on which will personally benefit themselves or their party. However I'd rather MP's make these sort of decisions than the public which on the whole is pretty unintelligent, very uneducated and is easily manipulated by a purely self-interested media.
Author:  DaveO [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Tories & Europe
Cookridge_Rhino wrote:
I'm not a big fan of a lot of MP's, and there needs to be better systems in place to stop them basing their decisions on which will personally benefit themselves or their party. However I'd rather MP's make these sort of decisions than the public which on the whole is pretty unintelligent, very uneducated and is easily manipulated by a purely self-interested media.


Dally and his Daily Mail bible? :-)

I agree issues like that are what we pay MP's to decide for us. Far too complex to let it be decided by bent banana sound bites in a referendum.

Most people don't even understand the European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU yet blame the EU for EHCR decisions they disagree with.

When you are starting from that basis you have not got a hope in hell of getting people voting intelligently.

The Tories need to decide if they are pro Europe or not as a party. If as DC says he is and the party decides it is then those Tory MP's who oppose EU membership need to leave it or be booted out. The same applies to the smaller number of Labour MP's who are also anti-EU.

DC won't go down that path though as they would all end up in UKIP and split the Tory vote at the next general election. DC thinks a referendum will be a vote winner despite the fact he hasn't even framed the question or is able to deliver what he says would be something that needed putting to the people (a renegotiated membership for the UK in the EU).

The anti-EU MP's are just as disingenuous in that you have to ask if they are so diametrically opposed to their leaders stated position that the UK is better off in the EU why are they still in the party? There is an obvious home for them in UKIP. Again I think it is self preservation in that they want to try and form a majority government next time and perhaps despite being a minority of Tory MP's seem to believe they can force the issue of a referendum based on a simple in/out question.

Bottom line is we have an uneducated and easily manipulated public and too much self interest displayed by DC and his MP's. God knows how we will come out of this one.
Author:  Cibaman [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Tories & Europe
Dally wrote:Nothing to do with the enormous amount it costs the country nor the huge economic drag it exerts on us? Nothing to do with the fact that we are geographically a fringe area and like all fringe areas will become an impoverished irrelevance over time? Then again there are those misled by sections of the press and self-serving, mindless elements of the politcal class into thinking there is no viable alternative to membership.



If we weren't already in the EU there might just be a case for staying out of it. But we are in it and the idea that we would be better off coming out is fanciful. Similarly the idea that we could substantially re-negotiate the terms of our membership for the better is highly implausible.

The French and Germans in particular would never allow the UK to have a beneficial trading relationship with the EU outside of the EU. We're not Norway. If we left the insitution, the EU would have a huge incentive to make sure that we suffered as a consequence. If the UK were to prosper oustide of the EU it would completely de-stabalise that institution, encourage other countries to do the same. They're just not going to allow that to happen. We would end up accepting 75% of EU laws, still making a significant financial contribution and having even less say.
Author:  Mintball [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Tories & Europe
How confused are some people going to be today?

The European Court of Human Rights finds against BA for discrimination against an employee who wanted to wear a cross.

Will the response be:

a) a victory for common sense and our Christian heritage!

b) how dare this Euro court over rule a British tribunal and court!

The European Court of Human Rights finds against three claimants who had claimed discrimination on the grounds of their Christian beliefs.

Will the response be:

a) dreadful decision from the fascist Euro court, persecuting genuine Christians;

b) excellent to see the Euro court does not over turn three UK decisions?
Author:  Mintball [ Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Tories & Europe
Cibaman wrote:If we weren't already in the EU there might just be a case for staying out of it. But we are in it and the idea that we would be better off coming out is fanciful. Similarly the idea that we could substantially re-negotiate the terms of our membership for the better is highly implausible.

The French and Germans in particular would never allow the UK to have a beneficial trading relationship with the EU outside of the EU. We're not Norway. If we left the insitution, the EU would have a huge incentive to make sure that we suffered as a consequence. If the UK were to prosper oustide of the EU it would completely de-stabalise that institution, encourage other countries to do the same. They're just not going to allow that to happen. We would end up accepting 75% of EU laws, still making a significant financial contribution and having even less say.


I can't remember where I saw it or who said it, but can you imagine the Scandinavian countries standing by, seeing us butcher our working right to well below the high level they have, just to undercut them?
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