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Miliband - "too little done to integrate UK society"
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Author:  Ferocious Aardvark [ Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Miliband - "too little done to integrate UK society"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20715253

Quote:The Labour leader will call for more proficiency in the English language as part of his One Nation ideal.

He will also admit his party's last government made mistakes in tackling the "realities of segregation" in struggling communities.

In part, that means rejecting the idea that people can "live side by side in their own communities, respecting each other but living separate lives, protected from hatreds but never building a common bond - never learning to appreciate one another", he explains.


I am curious to know how he thinks this can work. In Bradford, there are very sharply defined areas where Muslim populations live. Increasingly, the women wear all-black, including the veil, which cuts them off entirely from the lives of pretty much anyone except their own family and other women in the same situation. As I understand it, there are even more strict households, where the women are not allowed out unchaperoned.

I would ask Mr Miliband how he would square the sort of "integration" he seems to think he can achieve, with the rules and beliefs of people who, as a matter of religion, are forever ad completely forbidden from doing any such thing. I'm no expert so I'd point him here:
Quote:http://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-ethics-for-muslim-men-and-women/6.htm
and just to single out one or two stumbling blocks to integration:

Quote:181 – Rule: It is not allowed to talk to someone about anything that is related to sexual or intimate issues (except one’s spouse). AGKLMS

Note and warning: Sometimes, it can be seen that in the hearts of men, the devil has become so firm that many of their social gatherings are doubtful, and it can be seen that a man has more interest in mingling with non-Mahram women than with his own Maharim. For example, there is a situation in which he can ask something from a man, but instead, he asks a non-Mahram woman; sometimes his conversation with non-Mahram women is prolonged so as to be able to talk with them more; going to places of amusement and on vacations with non-Mahram women is more attracting to him; if there is a place where there are non-Mahram women, he desires to be there more than other places; and when guests come over, he tries to talk and socialize more with the non-Mahram women than the men. He likes to stay in the presence of non-Mahram women more so than anywhere else. In summary, he likes any action that non-Mahram women are participating in more than any other work.

Men - especially our dear youth must stay away from these types of things because this kind of socializing and speaking (with members of the opposite sex) are usually associated with the intention of lust and obtaining (sexual) pleasure and can lead to being haram, according to Islam.


Quote:183 – Rule: It is Makruh for women to speak to men if it is not necessary.

("Makruh" = abominable, offensive]
Quote:191 – Question: Is it allowed to read romance novels in which sexual issues are being discussed? Also, is it allowed to print such books?

Answer: It is not allowed.


Quote:197 – Rule: Even though looking at the face and hands of a Muslim woman in hijab, and looking at that amount of the body of a non-Muslim woman which is normally kept open is not a problem, however touching them is still not allowed. ABGKLMS

Therefore: Men and women who are non-Mahram are not allowed to shake hands with each other, nor can they have any other kind of bodily contact.

Note: In the below mentioned circumstances, one must be more cautious than in other instances about the bodily contact (not taking place) with a non-Mahram:

1. Taking or giving even a small object from the hands of a non-Mahram (for example exact change).

2. Taking or giving keys, or any other small things.

3. Sitting beside a non-Mahram in taxis (or buses), or when guests come over to one’s house.

4. Non-Mahram men and women walking in a common, crowded area such as corridors, small alleys, doors, gates, etc.

5. Men going to gatherings in which lots of women are present, or any place where there are lots of non-Mahram women present.

6. Women going (or passing by) a gathering or busy place where there are lots of non-Mahram men present.

7. At the time of buying and selling things in stores.


Quote:218 – Rule: It is not allowed to go to a gathering in which one knows that something haram will take place. For example, to accept a dinner invitation in which a person knows that by going there he will be forced to look at non-Mahram women without hijab


Quote:In the understated examples of programs and other mixed gatherings there is a probability of sin, and more so than other instances, one must be extra cautious:

To have mixed dinner parties, especially if the people attending are youths; non-Mahrams eating together at the same table; going with non-Mahrams to amusement parks or other entertainment places such as gardens, parks, mountains, travelling – especially if a non-Mahram man and woman are in a car alone; to joke around with a non-Mahrams; two non-Mahram working together in one shop, etc…


Quote:220 – Question: Respectfully, I would like to inform you that we have relatives, who in addition to not reciting their Salat, also associate with Christians. Furthermore, their girls and women do not observe the proper hijab and their hair also shows, and however much we advise them, it does not have any effect. If we want to close our eyes in our own house, then it is not possible, and if we look at them, then it is a sin. In this instance, what should we do? What is the ruling on our interactions with them?

Answer: If it will have an effect, then enjoin them to good and forbid them from evil, and other than this, you have no other responsibility, and in the event that you have relations and socializing with them, you must be careful that you don’t fall into sin by looking at non-Mahrams. It is not necessary to cut off relations with them since there is a possibility that maybe, by keeping ties with them, it may have an affect on them. May Allah (SWT) guide them and acquaint them with the Laws of Islam


Now, while personally I just wish all religion was abolished, I respect the choices of others to live their lives their own way, and I quote the above in a completely neutral way, and don't comment about it. What I do say is, if this is the belief and rule system of whole communities, then very clearly, any meaningful integration is impossible. There are just too many stumbling blocks. It seems that everything is predicated upon the assumption that anything and everything either is sexual, incites sexual thoughts or behaviour or risks doing so, and this must be strenuously guarded against at every possible moment.

Would not adherents of such a code find his comments offensive, and say "Why should we act against our beliefs to so called "integrate" with those who do not share our beliefs?"

What price integration a la Miliband?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20715253

Quote:The Labour leader will call for more proficiency in the English language as part of his One Nation ideal.

He will also admit his party's last government made mistakes in tackling the "realities of segregation" in struggling communities.

In part, that means rejecting the idea that people can "live side by side in their own communities, respecting each other but living separate lives, protected from hatreds but never building a common bond - never learning to appreciate one another", he explains.


I am curious to know how he thinks this can work. In Bradford, there are very sharply defined areas where Muslim populations live. Increasingly, the women wear all-black, including the veil, which cuts them off entirely from the lives of pretty much anyone except their own family and other women in the same situation. As I understand it, there are even more strict households, where the women are not allowed out unchaperoned.

I would ask Mr Miliband how he would square the sort of "integration" he seems to think he can achieve, with the rules and beliefs of people who, as a matter of religion, are forever ad completely forbidden from doing any such thing. I'm no expert so I'd point him here:
Quote:http://www.al-islam.org/a-code-of-ethics-for-muslim-men-and-women/6.htm
and just to single out one or two stumbling blocks to integration:

Quote:181 – Rule: It is not allowed to talk to someone about anything that is related to sexual or intimate issues (except one’s spouse). AGKLMS

Note and warning: Sometimes, it can be seen that in the hearts of men, the devil has become so firm that many of their social gatherings are doubtful, and it can be seen that a man has more interest in mingling with non-Mahram women than with his own Maharim. For example, there is a situation in which he can ask something from a man, but instead, he asks a non-Mahram woman; sometimes his conversation with non-Mahram women is prolonged so as to be able to talk with them more; going to places of amusement and on vacations with non-Mahram women is more attracting to him; if there is a place where there are non-Mahram women, he desires to be there more than other places; and when guests come over, he tries to talk and socialize more with the non-Mahram women than the men. He likes to stay in the presence of non-Mahram women more so than anywhere else. In summary, he likes any action that non-Mahram women are participating in more than any other work.

Men - especially our dear youth must stay away from these types of things because this kind of socializing and speaking (with members of the opposite sex) are usually associated with the intention of lust and obtaining (sexual) pleasure and can lead to being haram, according to Islam.


Quote:183 – Rule: It is Makruh for women to speak to men if it is not necessary.

("Makruh" = abominable, offensive]
Quote:191 – Question: Is it allowed to read romance novels in which sexual issues are being discussed? Also, is it allowed to print such books?

Answer: It is not allowed.


Quote:197 – Rule: Even though looking at the face and hands of a Muslim woman in hijab, and looking at that amount of the body of a non-Muslim woman which is normally kept open is not a problem, however touching them is still not allowed. ABGKLMS

Therefore: Men and women who are non-Mahram are not allowed to shake hands with each other, nor can they have any other kind of bodily contact.

Note: In the below mentioned circumstances, one must be more cautious than in other instances about the bodily contact (not taking place) with a non-Mahram:

1. Taking or giving even a small object from the hands of a non-Mahram (for example exact change).

2. Taking or giving keys, or any other small things.

3. Sitting beside a non-Mahram in taxis (or buses), or when guests come over to one’s house.

4. Non-Mahram men and women walking in a common, crowded area such as corridors, small alleys, doors, gates, etc.

5. Men going to gatherings in which lots of women are present, or any place where there are lots of non-Mahram women present.

6. Women going (or passing by) a gathering or busy place where there are lots of non-Mahram men present.

7. At the time of buying and selling things in stores.


Quote:218 – Rule: It is not allowed to go to a gathering in which one knows that something haram will take place. For example, to accept a dinner invitation in which a person knows that by going there he will be forced to look at non-Mahram women without hijab


Quote:In the understated examples of programs and other mixed gatherings there is a probability of sin, and more so than other instances, one must be extra cautious:

To have mixed dinner parties, especially if the people attending are youths; non-Mahrams eating together at the same table; going with non-Mahrams to amusement parks or other entertainment places such as gardens, parks, mountains, travelling – especially if a non-Mahram man and woman are in a car alone; to joke around with a non-Mahrams; two non-Mahram working together in one shop, etc…


Quote:220 – Question: Respectfully, I would like to inform you that we have relatives, who in addition to not reciting their Salat, also associate with Christians. Furthermore, their girls and women do not observe the proper hijab and their hair also shows, and however much we advise them, it does not have any effect. If we want to close our eyes in our own house, then it is not possible, and if we look at them, then it is a sin. In this instance, what should we do? What is the ruling on our interactions with them?

Answer: If it will have an effect, then enjoin them to good and forbid them from evil, and other than this, you have no other responsibility, and in the event that you have relations and socializing with them, you must be careful that you don’t fall into sin by looking at non-Mahrams. It is not necessary to cut off relations with them since there is a possibility that maybe, by keeping ties with them, it may have an affect on them. May Allah (SWT) guide them and acquaint them with the Laws of Islam


Now, while personally I just wish all religion was abolished, I respect the choices of others to live their lives their own way, and I quote the above in a completely neutral way, and don't comment about it. What I do say is, if this is the belief and rule system of whole communities, then very clearly, any meaningful integration is impossible. There are just too many stumbling blocks. It seems that everything is predicated upon the assumption that anything and everything either is sexual, incites sexual thoughts or behaviour or risks doing so, and this must be strenuously guarded against at every possible moment.

Would not adherents of such a code find his comments offensive, and say "Why should we act against our beliefs to so called "integrate" with those who do not share our beliefs?"

What price integration a la Miliband?
Author:  Andy Gilder [ Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miliband - "too little done to integrate UK society"
Sometimes, someone needs to remind Mr Ed that all he has to do is sit back, let the current lot continue botching the economy, education, NHS etc and not say anything that might be controversial.

It's almost like he's finding ways to get out of becoming Prime Minister.
Author:  Ferocious Aardvark [ Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miliband - "too little done to integrate UK society"
Andy Gilder wrote:Sometimes, someone needs to remind Mr Ed that all he has to do is sit back, let the current lot continue botching the economy, education, NHS etc and not say anything that might be controversial.

It's almost like he's finding ways to get out of becoming Prime Minister.


Would you blame him? :D
Author:  Stand-Offish [ Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miliband - "too little done to integrate UK society"
Admittance that a government got things wrong (very badly) but now in oposition sees the light. Please spare us the meaningless enlightenment shoite.
It's another way of saying sorry you know, only with a positive spin.
They presided over a p/iss up in a brewery and stifled debate as racism.
Get that Mail away from yourself Stand-Offish!

But yes something needs doing by someone with a clue.
Author:  El Barbudo [ Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miliband - "too little done to integrate UK society"
Ferocious Aardvark wrote: ... What I do say is, if this is the belief and rule system of whole communities, then very clearly, any meaningful integration is impossible. There are just too many stumbling blocks. It seems that everything is predicated upon the assumption that anything and everything either is sexual, incites sexual thoughts or behaviour or risks doing so, and this must be strenuously guarded against at every possible moment.

Would not adherents of such a code find his comments offensive, and say "Why should we act against our beliefs to so called "integrate" with those who do not share our beliefs?"

What price integration a la Miliband?


No price and I'd say that the stumbing blocks are actually worse than that, they are almost guaranteed to lead to conflicts rooted in mutual misunderstanding.

Just as an aside, and without meaning to be offensive at all ...how do people identify burkah-ed individuals one from another, if they are roughly the same size, because all you see are eyes and an apparently shapeless garment?
I'm guessing that the idea is that you don't ... because that could obviously only be for the purposes of lust.
Author:  Mintball [ Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miliband - "too little done to integrate UK society"
Interesting comments above.

But it's hardly a 'new' situation to have, in effect, ghettoes in the UK.

There have been ones in areas such as Stamford Hill for donkey's years, but nobody has ever seen that as an issue. These are areas that use specific religious laws in family courts. Children are dressed differently – and educated differently. It's difficult to see how that is good for integration.
Author:  El Barbudo [ Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miliband - "too little done to integrate UK society"
One evening in the 1990's, I was in The Northumberland Arms on Goodge Street, London (it used to be a Tetley's pub) and whilst being served at the bar, a young bloke perched on a bar stool picked-up on my accent and asked me (in a Yorkshire accent) where I was from.
He was from Leeds and so was I.
Whilst I was waiting for La Senora to turn up, he and I fell into conversation, comfortable in each other's company and sharing humour and chat ... he explaining to his (Londoner) colleagues about this conversation (with an apparent stranger) that we were both Yorkshire lads and, following that, some friendly North v South banter ensued.

His skin colour and facial characteristics would have suggested India or Pakistan and, whilst I'd obviously noticed, it was only later that it occurred to me that it hadn't cropped-up, we were both Yorkshire lads and that made him the same as me, which was not something I would have said about the rest of the Londoner clientele.

Funny how it works isn't it? Someone integrates and what happens? We become allies in inter-regional banter, which is itself another form of non-integration.
Author:  WIZEB [ Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miliband - "too little done to integrate UK society"
El Barbudo wrote:One evening in the 1990's, I was in The Northumberland Arms on Goodge Street, London (it used to be a Tetley's pub) and whilst being served at the bar, a young bloke perched on a bar stool picked-up on my accent and asked me (in a Yorkshire accent) where I was from.
He was from Leeds and so was I.
Whilst I was waiting for La Senora to turn up, he and I fell into conversation, comfortable in each other's company and sharing humour and chat ... he explaining to his (Londoner) colleagues about this conversation (with an apparent stranger) that we were both Yorkshire lads and, following that, some friendly North v South banter ensued.



His skin colour and facial characteristics would have suggested India or Pakistan and, whilst I'd obviously noticed, it was only later that it occurred to me that it hadn't cropped-up, we were both Yorkshire lads and that made him the same as me, which was not something I would have said about the rest of the Londoner clientele.

Funny how it works isn't it? Someone integrates and what happens? We become allies in inter-regional banter, which is itself another form of non-integration.


Yes but was the female whom you were waiting upon also from t'north of t'Watford Gap?
Author:  John_D [ Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miliband - "too little done to integrate UK society"
There's nothing that says non-integration/ghettoisation better than an exclusive gated community.


Or Harrogate.
Author:  Cronus [ Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miliband - "too little done to integrate UK society"
Whilst hosting a work Xmas party at the Hard Rock by Green Park a couple of years ago I got chatting to an extremely drunk girl from "Sarf Landan". Found myself in quite an awkward situation when she starting going on that "it was facking brilliant that I was a white English lad, cos they're all facking forriners where she comes from and she was fackin' sick of 'em."

Her bosses and colleagues, all of Pakistani origin, were stood next to us casting wary glances my way.
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