Ferocious Aardvark wrote:Each defendant would have the opportunity to address the court as to their guilt or innocence and level of culpability and any mitigating factors. The court has well-established sentencing guidelines but if no jail sentences are passed then any sentences will lose the (very badly) needed deterrent effect so yes, i would hope that the default position would be jail time.
Both defendants will probably insist it wasn't their decision and they were against it. It was their partner/in laws/parents.
The only convictions will be against the religious zealots who insist they were doing right all along.
Quote:If that were tru then the parents should again be investigated and if found to be neglecting their child to its detriment, they should lose the child.
You consider FGM to be child abuse. Aren't you wanting the children to be taken away from their parents for that anyway?
Quote:You assume both parents would be jailed. Experience teaches us that that is unusual.
FGM is completely different from one parent sexually abusing a child. You're claiming that it is an easy issue for the authorities to solve when it's blatantly obvious that it isn't.
Quote:But it is not a matter of whether they are "better off", the law needs to be brought to bear to stop FGM for as yet un-mutilated kids' benefit, and if you are looking for some sentencing utopia whereby stiff punishments for serious criminals somehow do not seriously impinge on family life, well, good luck with that. It isn't a consequence I or anyone would WANT, but is a consequence the parents should have thought of when deciding whether or no to let a butcher loose on their child. They are responsible.
The NHS estimates that 60,000 females in the UK have had this done to them. UNICEF estimate 125 million females worldwide have had this performed on them.
IMO we've done all we can in the UK. I support the UK in eradicating FGM worldwide, but I feel it would be lunacy to start criminalizing UK citizens for having different beliefs to us.
Quote:I would hope that eventually the fact I did no such thing, but that their own parents did it all by themselves, would be realised.
Their parents had the FGM performed. But it is YOU who is pushing them to be jailed for that when no one else wants to go there. Girls and women aren't coming forward to report their parents for this. They don't deem it worthy of further action, but you do.
Quote:And tolerate this butchery? Really? We shall just have to fundamentally disagree on that one, then.
This thread is only here because of the utterly awful child protection system in this country. You want more kids thrown into this system. Thankfully you are one of the few people who think that way.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:This thread is only here because of the utterly awful child protection system in this country. You want more kids thrown into this system. Thankfully you are one of the few people who think that way.
So, you proposal for a better alternative would be? ...
Joined: May 25 2002 Posts: 37704 Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
Sal Paradise wrote:Perhaps you need to take some time and consider why you description of multi-cultural Wincanton cannot be substantiated by the legal census of the very same place.
Based on the available evidence you have just made that up to suit your argument - none of your cliquey mates -like FA- on here are ever going to bring you task on what is a made up post. That is what I am mean by a clique - even Stevie Wonder can see it exists on here
Perhaps you'd be better served by actually reading the post I initially responded to, instead of making things up as you go along.
I was accused of living in a "leafy suburb": Wincanton, as a small, West Country market town, is hardly Surbiton or Virginia Water.
Mind you, I've still managed to live and work among diverse populations in Malaysia and Kenya without too many problems that I can recall
The older I get, the better I was
Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."
cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan
Last edited by cod'ead on Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: Feb 20 2002 Posts: 1437 Location: Leigh, where else?
JerryChicken wrote:"Muslim" isn't a race, nor are they targeting a specific race for their crimes - see the previous comments regarding any asian girl who would comply to their grooming.
'Muslim isn't a race' - that's exactly what the EDL say when they defend themselves against accusations of being racist.
They were targeted because their abusers regarded them as western 'white trash' and the only article mentioning Asian girls being abused say's they had become 'too English' so it was their own fault!
IMO anybody trying to deny there was a racist element in these crimes are so PC they have disappeared up their own anuses.
"If the American people knew tonight, exactly how the monetary and banking system worked, there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
-Abraham Lincoln
Joined: May 25 2002 Posts: 37704 Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
LeighGionaire wrote:'Muslim isn't a race' - that's exactly what the EDL say when they defend themselves against accusations of being racist.
.
But it isn't, in the same way that Jewish isn't a race, nor Anglican. They are religions, practised by peoples of many races
The older I get, the better I was
Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."
cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan
Joined: Feb 20 2002 Posts: 1437 Location: Leigh, where else?
cod'ead wrote:But it isn't, in the same way that Jewish isn't a race, nor Anglican. They are religions, practised by peoples of many races
So anti-semitism isn't racist?
"If the American people knew tonight, exactly how the monetary and banking system worked, there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
-Abraham Lincoln
Joined: Feb 17 2002 Posts: 28357 Location: MACS0647-JD
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Both defendants will probably insist it wasn't their decision and they were against it. It was their partner/in laws/parents.
The only convictions will be against the religious zealots who insist they were doing right all along.
Why such a cynical and pessimistic view of the law? One frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up. Then there are the conspiracy laws. At any rate, none of your comments are even the beginning of a reason not to try to prosecute.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:You consider FGM to be child abuse.
No, I hold FGM to be self-evidently child abuse. Anyone who disagrees I would view as a pervert or a religious zealot.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Aren't you wanting the children to be taken away from their parents for that anyway?
Oh yes, in the long run far better for them to be raised in a non-religious-nutjob environment, by people who love and respect them, and don't want to get religious nutjobs to mutilate them without anaesthetic. However the main aim in this area must surely be to identify girls at RISK of being subjected to FGM and taking steps to prevent it from happening in the first place. Sadly religion is so prevalent that it is no good advocating removing children from even the most fanatical religionists, as the starting point is the impossibility of any such course. But a child who HAS BEEN mutilated? Yep, the parents do not deserve the child and it needs urgent medical help which clearly the parents have no intention of providing.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:FGM is completely different from one parent sexually abusing a child.
It's really not. Performing mutilation to genitals is very clearly abuse, and the whole point of it seems to be because the offending body parts are deemed religiously unacceptable as they are sexual organs.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote: You're claiming that it is an easy issue for the authorities to solve when it's blatantly obvious that it isn't.
Easy? I never claimed any such thing. It is obviously difficult. But they should have started the prosecutions many years ago, learned from them, developed their methods and in general made it clear by actions that our society simply will not tolerate FGM. The inaction I am sure has convinced proponents of FGM that it is tolerated. They clearly feel safe.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:IMO we've done all we can in the UK. I support the UK in eradicating FGM worldwide, but I feel it would be lunacy to start criminalizing UK citizens for having different beliefs to us.
We have done NOTHING though. Not one prosecution for your claimed 60,000 mutilations. Secondly, it IS a crime, and a serious one at that, and performed against the least empowered in our society, and done in cold blood. Your most ridiculous statement is about "criminalising UK citizens for having different beliefs". They can believe whatever they like, including that it would be great if they could chop bits off their children. As long as they do not actually have bits chopped off their children.. That is the criminal act, not believing it should be done.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Their parents had the FGM performed. But it is YOU who is pushing them to be jailed for that when no one else wants to go there.
No-one else? I'm the only one in the UK? Wow. I didn't know.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Girls and women aren't coming forward to report their parents for this. They don't deem it worthy of further action, but you do.
Ah, you know all of them too. You sure know a lot of people. You should perhaps have told the NSPCC, they could then have saved themselves all the bother and expense of setting of their Female genital mutilation helplinewhich presumably has therefore yet to receive a call. In fact, these unfortunate young girls, already being born into a repressive and controling jail of religious nutjobbery, are raised as no better than slaves, their spirit is broken and this is but one part - if a major partr -of their brainwashing and having their spirit broken, and their sense of self-worth crushed.
What would you guess then motivates Fahma Mohamed, and the 200,000+ people that have signed her Petition to end FGM?
Do you even know what lies in store for them? Did you know they often have their vaginas sewn up? That once they are married off, it is up to man to whom they are given to decide how to re-open the vagina, and apparently the majority feel that anything less than a grand forced re-opening with a penis would make them less of a man?
And you want to let this all continue "because they have different religious beliefs"? If you do, then you simply disgust me.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Thankfully you are one of the few people who think that way.
Thankfully, I believe no civilised person who understands the issue shares your views on this. Certainly not "Ardo", whose story you might learn something from.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Both defendants will probably insist it wasn't their decision and they were against it. It was their partner/in laws/parents.
The only convictions will be against the religious zealots who insist they were doing right all along.
Why such a cynical and pessimistic view of the law? One frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up. Then there are the conspiracy laws. At any rate, none of your comments are even the beginning of a reason not to try to prosecute.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:You consider FGM to be child abuse.
No, I hold FGM to be self-evidently child abuse. Anyone who disagrees I would view as a pervert or a religious zealot.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Aren't you wanting the children to be taken away from their parents for that anyway?
Oh yes, in the long run far better for them to be raised in a non-religious-nutjob environment, by people who love and respect them, and don't want to get religious nutjobs to mutilate them without anaesthetic. However the main aim in this area must surely be to identify girls at RISK of being subjected to FGM and taking steps to prevent it from happening in the first place. Sadly religion is so prevalent that it is no good advocating removing children from even the most fanatical religionists, as the starting point is the impossibility of any such course. But a child who HAS BEEN mutilated? Yep, the parents do not deserve the child and it needs urgent medical help which clearly the parents have no intention of providing.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:FGM is completely different from one parent sexually abusing a child.
It's really not. Performing mutilation to genitals is very clearly abuse, and the whole point of it seems to be because the offending body parts are deemed religiously unacceptable as they are sexual organs.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote: You're claiming that it is an easy issue for the authorities to solve when it's blatantly obvious that it isn't.
Easy? I never claimed any such thing. It is obviously difficult. But they should have started the prosecutions many years ago, learned from them, developed their methods and in general made it clear by actions that our society simply will not tolerate FGM. The inaction I am sure has convinced proponents of FGM that it is tolerated. They clearly feel safe.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:IMO we've done all we can in the UK. I support the UK in eradicating FGM worldwide, but I feel it would be lunacy to start criminalizing UK citizens for having different beliefs to us.
We have done NOTHING though. Not one prosecution for your claimed 60,000 mutilations. Secondly, it IS a crime, and a serious one at that, and performed against the least empowered in our society, and done in cold blood. Your most ridiculous statement is about "criminalising UK citizens for having different beliefs". They can believe whatever they like, including that it would be great if they could chop bits off their children. As long as they do not actually have bits chopped off their children.. That is the criminal act, not believing it should be done.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Their parents had the FGM performed. But it is YOU who is pushing them to be jailed for that when no one else wants to go there.
No-one else? I'm the only one in the UK? Wow. I didn't know.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Girls and women aren't coming forward to report their parents for this. They don't deem it worthy of further action, but you do.
Ah, you know all of them too. You sure know a lot of people. You should perhaps have told the NSPCC, they could then have saved themselves all the bother and expense of setting of their Female genital mutilation helplinewhich presumably has therefore yet to receive a call. In fact, these unfortunate young girls, already being born into a repressive and controling jail of religious nutjobbery, are raised as no better than slaves, their spirit is broken and this is but one part - if a major partr -of their brainwashing and having their spirit broken, and their sense of self-worth crushed.
What would you guess then motivates Fahma Mohamed, and the 200,000+ people that have signed her Petition to end FGM?
Do you even know what lies in store for them? Did you know they often have their vaginas sewn up? That once they are married off, it is up to man to whom they are given to decide how to re-open the vagina, and apparently the majority feel that anything less than a grand forced re-opening with a penis would make them less of a man?
And you want to let this all continue "because they have different religious beliefs"? If you do, then you simply disgust me.
Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Thankfully you are one of the few people who think that way.
Thankfully, I believe no civilised person who understands the issue shares your views on this. Certainly not "Ardo", whose story you might learn something from.
Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total
Ferocious Aardvark wrote:Why such a cynical and pessimistic view of the law? One frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up. Then there are the conspiracy laws. At any rate, none of your comments are even the beginning of a reason not to try to prosecute.
Do you know whether the people who push for FGM are male or female? Do you know whether the new parents go along with this or whether they are pushed into it by their more traditional parents? If you have a good knowledge of the customs in all these countries and can accurately judge who was involved in arranging it then you can begin to determine who is the guilty party.
But convicting a mother of arranging the FGM of her daughter when it may have been completely against her wishes, sending her to jail and ripping her family from her is unlikely to catch on as good practice.
Quote:No, I hold FGM to be self-evidently child abuse. Anyone who disagrees I would view as a pervert or a religious zealot.
Is male circumcision child abuse? Do some people consider male circumcision to be MGM?
I honestly don't know. I'm uncircumcised and have never given it much thought. But I've lived in the USA and in that country I believe most men are circumcised. Why the difference between the US and here?
It is pretty clear that the UK and the WHO are vehemently against FGM and the choice to label it FGM rather than simply circumcision shows their stance. But labeling the parents of 1.25m children and women as child abusers is utterly ridiculous.
Quote:Oh yes, in the long run far better for them to be raised in a non-religious-nutjob environment, by people who love and respect them, and don't want to get religious nutjobs to mutilate them without anaesthetic.
We can't protect young English girls from being forced into prostitution by Pakistani gangs, but we have loving foster parents ready for young immigrant children who have just been stripped from their homes and families?
Quote:However the main aim in this area must surely be to identify girls at RISK of being subjected to FGM and taking steps to prevent it from happening in the first place.
How do you propose doing that?
Quote:Sadly religion is so prevalent that it is no good advocating removing children from even the most fanatical religionists, as the starting point is the impossibility of any such course. But a child who HAS BEEN mutilated? Yep, the parents do not deserve the child and it needs urgent medical help which clearly the parents have no intention of providing.
So the NHS estimates 60,000 UK females have had this performed on them. So I'd guess that'd amount to roughly 100,000+ children who you want to forcibly remove from their home and assume responsibility for. Good luck with that.
Quote:It's really not. Performing mutilation to genitals is very clearly abuse, and the whole point of it seems to be because the offending body parts are deemed religiously unacceptable as they are sexual organs.
Seems? If you know why this procedure takes place then you don't need to hide behind seems.
Quote:Easy? I never claimed any such thing. It is obviously difficult. But they should have started the prosecutions many years ago, learned from them, developed their methods and in general made it clear by actions that our society simply will not tolerate FGM. The inaction I am sure has convinced proponents of FGM that it is tolerated. They clearly feel safe.
Just reading up on wikipedia about FGM, but from my quick scanning of the page there is no mention whatsoever of any prosecutions anywhere of parents who have had this procedure performed on their children. All the prosecutions are of the doctors or the people who performed it. So you are arguing for something that no country on earth actually does.
Quote:We have done NOTHING though. Not one prosecution for your claimed 60,000 mutilations.
Quote:No-one else? I'm the only one in the UK? Wow. I didn't know.
So who else in the UK is saying that families should be ripped apart over this issue? How many children are prepared to report their parents over this?
Quote:Ah, you know all of them too. You sure know a lot of people. You should perhaps have told the NSPCC, they could then have saved themselves all the bother and expense of setting of their Female genital mutilation helplinewhich presumably has therefore yet to receive a call. In fact, these unfortunate young girls, already being born into a repressive and controling jail of religious nutjobbery, are raised as no better than slaves, their spirit is broken and this is but one part - if a major partr -of their brainwashing and having their spirit broken, and their sense of self-worth crushed.
I'm not pro-FGM. I don't understand it and totally accept the UK and WHOs stance on it. I just don't think your ridiculous solution of wrecking immigrant families has any merit to it.
Quote:Do you even know what lies in store for them? Did you know they often have their vaginas sewn up? That once they are married off, it is up to man to whom they are given to decide how to re-open the vagina, and apparently the majority feel that anything less than a grand forced re-opening with a penis would make them less of a man?
What's your source for this?
Quote:And you want to let this all continue "because they have different religious beliefs"? If you do, then you simply disgust me.
I don't want this to continue. I just think your solution to the problem is ridiculous.
Quote:Thankfully, I believe no civilised person who understands the issue shares your views on this.
Based upon the NHS, WHO and UN viewpoint I am against FGM.
But I do think that this is the argument from one side and there seems to be no attempt whatsoever to accept there is any other point of view. I guess they just aren't civilised enough to be listened to and should just accept what we say.
But my main view is that it is a massively difficult issue and that your solution is simplistic, stupid and ultimately damaging to the very people you claim to be wanting to defend.
Ferocious Aardvark wrote:Why such a cynical and pessimistic view of the law? One frequent outcome of such mutual defences for assorted crimes is BOTH being convicted. I have faith in juries in general to see straight through bogus defences, and I am sure you grossly underestimate how hard it is to mount a fake defence in police questioning without tripping yourself and each other up. Then there are the conspiracy laws. At any rate, none of your comments are even the beginning of a reason not to try to prosecute.
Do you know whether the people who push for FGM are male or female? Do you know whether the new parents go along with this or whether they are pushed into it by their more traditional parents? If you have a good knowledge of the customs in all these countries and can accurately judge who was involved in arranging it then you can begin to determine who is the guilty party.
But convicting a mother of arranging the FGM of her daughter when it may have been completely against her wishes, sending her to jail and ripping her family from her is unlikely to catch on as good practice.
Quote:No, I hold FGM to be self-evidently child abuse. Anyone who disagrees I would view as a pervert or a religious zealot.
Is male circumcision child abuse? Do some people consider male circumcision to be MGM?
I honestly don't know. I'm uncircumcised and have never given it much thought. But I've lived in the USA and in that country I believe most men are circumcised. Why the difference between the US and here?
It is pretty clear that the UK and the WHO are vehemently against FGM and the choice to label it FGM rather than simply circumcision shows their stance. But labeling the parents of 1.25m children and women as child abusers is utterly ridiculous.
Quote:Oh yes, in the long run far better for them to be raised in a non-religious-nutjob environment, by people who love and respect them, and don't want to get religious nutjobs to mutilate them without anaesthetic.
We can't protect young English girls from being forced into prostitution by Pakistani gangs, but we have loving foster parents ready for young immigrant children who have just been stripped from their homes and families?
Quote:However the main aim in this area must surely be to identify girls at RISK of being subjected to FGM and taking steps to prevent it from happening in the first place.
How do you propose doing that?
Quote:Sadly religion is so prevalent that it is no good advocating removing children from even the most fanatical religionists, as the starting point is the impossibility of any such course. But a child who HAS BEEN mutilated? Yep, the parents do not deserve the child and it needs urgent medical help which clearly the parents have no intention of providing.
So the NHS estimates 60,000 UK females have had this performed on them. So I'd guess that'd amount to roughly 100,000+ children who you want to forcibly remove from their home and assume responsibility for. Good luck with that.
Quote:It's really not. Performing mutilation to genitals is very clearly abuse, and the whole point of it seems to be because the offending body parts are deemed religiously unacceptable as they are sexual organs.
Seems? If you know why this procedure takes place then you don't need to hide behind seems.
Quote:Easy? I never claimed any such thing. It is obviously difficult. But they should have started the prosecutions many years ago, learned from them, developed their methods and in general made it clear by actions that our society simply will not tolerate FGM. The inaction I am sure has convinced proponents of FGM that it is tolerated. They clearly feel safe.
Just reading up on wikipedia about FGM, but from my quick scanning of the page there is no mention whatsoever of any prosecutions anywhere of parents who have had this procedure performed on their children. All the prosecutions are of the doctors or the people who performed it. So you are arguing for something that no country on earth actually does.
Quote:We have done NOTHING though. Not one prosecution for your claimed 60,000 mutilations.
Quote:No-one else? I'm the only one in the UK? Wow. I didn't know.
So who else in the UK is saying that families should be ripped apart over this issue? How many children are prepared to report their parents over this?
Quote:Ah, you know all of them too. You sure know a lot of people. You should perhaps have told the NSPCC, they could then have saved themselves all the bother and expense of setting of their Female genital mutilation helplinewhich presumably has therefore yet to receive a call. In fact, these unfortunate young girls, already being born into a repressive and controling jail of religious nutjobbery, are raised as no better than slaves, their spirit is broken and this is but one part - if a major partr -of their brainwashing and having their spirit broken, and their sense of self-worth crushed.
I'm not pro-FGM. I don't understand it and totally accept the UK and WHOs stance on it. I just don't think your ridiculous solution of wrecking immigrant families has any merit to it.
Quote:Do you even know what lies in store for them? Did you know they often have their vaginas sewn up? That once they are married off, it is up to man to whom they are given to decide how to re-open the vagina, and apparently the majority feel that anything less than a grand forced re-opening with a penis would make them less of a man?
What's your source for this?
Quote:And you want to let this all continue "because they have different religious beliefs"? If you do, then you simply disgust me.
I don't want this to continue. I just think your solution to the problem is ridiculous.
Quote:Thankfully, I believe no civilised person who understands the issue shares your views on this.
Based upon the NHS, WHO and UN viewpoint I am against FGM.
But I do think that this is the argument from one side and there seems to be no attempt whatsoever to accept there is any other point of view. I guess they just aren't civilised enough to be listened to and should just accept what we say.
But my main view is that it is a massively difficult issue and that your solution is simplistic, stupid and ultimately damaging to the very people you claim to be wanting to defend.
LeighGionaire wrote:'They were targeted because their abusers regarded them as western 'white trash' and the only article mentioning Asian girls being abused say's they had become 'too English' so it was their own fault!
I think you've answered my point very succinctly there, thank you - and unless any further evidence emerges over the following months you'll also probably find that charges of racist crimes do not appear in any court cases linked to this matter as indeed they never have done in similar cases.
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