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 Post subject: Re: Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:38 pm 
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So this has turned into a massive bun fight over her.
I'm sure it what she would have wanted as she liked a good scrap.






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 Post subject: Re: Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:41 pm 
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Lord Elpers wrote:
If you were an illegal flying picket you certainly didn't work the whole year. You were skiving or on strike. What a sad thing to boast about! I now understand why Mrs Thatcher's victorys over the bad guys has left you so bitter and twisted.


I did nothing illegal, secondary picketing wasn't unlawful in 1979. During the January 1979 strike I was putting in 16 hour shifts: eight hours organising at Bevin House, Hull and eight hours on the cobbles, preventing scab drivers from trying to undermine the principles of the strike.

I was the shop steward in our haulage company and because I was the only one who didn't have children, I was the only one to work between Christmas and New Year. When I got back to the yard on 30 December 1978, I noticed that all of the other trucks had been de-licensed. A few phone calls confirmed that all the other companies had done the same. The employers knew that our mass-meeting on 2 January 1979 would result in an immediate strike vote and sought to minimise their costs. Can't blame them for that.

After the strike was called I was co-opted onto the strike committee and our MD was on the employers' committee. We spoke most days on how things were going and even devised a way of bringing the dispute to an early end. Unfortunately most of the employers refused to even consider the resolution. During the time of the strike I proposed we allow any trucks carrying food (human and animal) be allowed free movement, this was approved by the rest of the strike committee, similarly those companies engaged in fuel supplies (coal, LPG & oil) were also given dispensation. The flying pickets were needed because too many unscrupulous companies and the scab-labour drivers they employed tried to use the dispensations to engage in general haulage. Quite simply, if they'd played by the agreed rules, there'd have been no need for flying pickets.

We finally settled for our full demand, three weeks after the dispute could've been resolved if it wasn't for the initial intransigence of the employers. They were the ones who caused the protraction and in the end paid a very expensive price. It's easy to lay the blame for all this country's previous labour problems at the feet of the workers. It's made even easier when an established media tend to present only one side of the story but the fact that they are esteablished means they are an integral part of the establishment and it is their best interests to portray the "plebs" as the problem.

German and French labour forces have always been heavily unionised, the difference between their industries and ours can mostly be placed at the feet of the management styles. Continental companies have always seen their workers as an asset, most British companies saw them as a cost-base at best, usually as a liability.

Post WW2 we helped rebuild Germany & Japan and both countries actively embraced the industrial management principles of W Edwards Deming, what a great pity our own industrial magnates refused to adopt the same principles here.

I'm still waiting for evidence of the power cuts and water & gas shortages prior to Thatcher BTW






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Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't

I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy
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cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"

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"No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan

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 Post subject: Re: Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:46 am 
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El Barbudo wrote:There are a number of people who agree with you about those industries and, to be fair, they have a point.
But their point is blunted when the same people start moaning that the unemployed should be made to work for their dole.
Inconsistency is so easy.


There is no inconsistency here, not sure how you equate running huge loss making industries to participation in social projects.






Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.

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 Post subject: Re: Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:52 am 
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cod'ead wrote:I did nothing illegal, secondary picketing wasn't unlawful in 1979. During the January 1979 strike I was putting in 16 hour shifts: eight hours organising at Bevin House, Hull and eight hours on the cobbles, preventing scab drivers from trying to undermine the principles of the strike.

I was the shop steward in our haulage company and because I was the only one who didn't have children, I was the only one to work between Christmas and New Year. When I got back to the yard on 30 December 1978, I noticed that all of the other trucks had been de-licensed. A few phone calls confirmed that all the other companies had done the same. The employers knew that our mass-meeting on 2 January 1979 would result in an immediate strike vote and sought to minimise their costs. Can't blame them for that.

After the strike was called I was co-opted onto the strike committee and our MD was on the employers' committee. We spoke most days on how things were going and even devised a way of bringing the dispute to an early end. Unfortunately most of the employers refused to even consider the resolution. During the time of the strike I proposed we allow any trucks carrying food (human and animal) be allowed free movement, this was approved by the rest of the strike committee, similarly those companies engaged in fuel supplies (coal, LPG & oil) were also given dispensation. The flying pickets were needed because too many unscrupulous companies and the scab-labour drivers they employed tried to use the dispensations to engage in general haulage. Quite simply, if they'd played by the agreed rules, there'd have been no need for flying pickets.

We finally settled for our full demand, three weeks after the dispute could've been resolved if it wasn't for the initial intransigence of the employers. They were the ones who caused the protraction and in the end paid a very expensive price. It's easy to lay the blame for all this country's previous labour problems at the feet of the workers. It's made even easier when an established media tend to present only one side of the story but the fact that they are esteablished means they are an integral part of the establishment and it is their best interests to portray the "plebs" as the problem.

German and French labour forces have always been heavily unionised, the difference between their industries and ours can mostly be placed at the feet of the management styles. Continental companies have always seen their workers as an asset, most British companies saw them as a cost-base at best, usually as a liability.

Post WW2 we helped rebuild Germany & Japan and both countries actively embraced the industrial management principles of W Edwards Deming, what a great pity our own industrial magnates refused to adopt the same principles here.

I'm still waiting for evidence of the power cuts and water & gas shortages prior to Thatcher BTW


The term scab is pretty emotive - so anyone who disagrees with the majority is a scab - surely the failure is your inability to convince them of the merits of your argument? To stop normal people not involved in disputes from carrying out their daily business is abhorrent.






Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.

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 Post subject: Re: Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:10 am 
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Dally wrote:So Mrs Thatcher did not kill of British manufacturing did she?

Governments ill-advisedly had been propping up failed private business by nationalising them to avoid mass unemployment. But it was just a wasteful use of resources and wholly unsustainable. when you look back it is frankly farcical that British Leyland (and, although not manufacruring) BRS were supported by public money. What thanks did the government public get? Unions always striking because governments had signalled they were too big too fail. All nationalisation of these dead ducks did was prolong the agony and tie up resources preventing the evolution of new more viable businesses.

As I said, Mrs Thatcher did not destroy British manufacturing - certain sectors did well and grew, others failed because they produced obsolete goods, poor goods or goods too expensively.



So you agree with my post then ?






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 Post subject: Re: Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:15 am 
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Sal Paradise wrote:The term scab is pretty emotive - so anyone who disagrees with the majority is a scab - surely the failure is your inability to convince them of the merits of your argument? To stop normal people not involved in disputes from carrying out their daily business is abhorrent.


Scab, black-leg or strike-breaker, are not emotive, they are desriptive of the actions of non-union labour who otherwise would have been involved in agricultural haulage, taking an opportunity to profit at the expense of those who had withdrawn their labour in order to improve their working conditions. The fact that the scabs would also have ultimately benefited from any improvements in pay and conditions made it all the more unpaletable.

The vast majority of drivers were in the main trades unions: TGWU, URTU, USDAW; most of the non-unionised (and some unionised) drivers had been iven dispensations to engage in vital supplies, they and their employers chose to take advantage of the strike by engaging in general haulage, often by using amateur subterfuge. I remember driving a minibus full of pickets to a local factory after an attempted strike-break. When we arrived we found a truck with an animal feed dispensation sticker in the windscreen, his load was fully sheeted and hay could be seen at the bottom edges of the sheet. He'd glued hay to the chock rails, hoping we wouldn't question why a company like Smith & Nephew would need a delivery of animal feed






The older I get, the better I was

Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't

I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."

cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan

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 Post subject: Re: Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:04 am 
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cod'ead wrote:Scab, black-leg or strike-breaker, are not emotive, they are desriptive of the actions of non-union labour who otherwise would have been involved in agricultural haulage, taking an opportunity to profit at the expense of those who had withdrawn their labour in order to improve their working conditions. The fact that the scabs would also have ultimately benefited from any improvements in pay and conditions made it all the more unpaletable.


I've crossed picket lines, usually because i'm happy with my pay and conditions, if i don't agree with those on strike why penalize myself?
You'd say i was the one being selfish but personally i thought they were the ones being greedy.
I was in an industry that thought 28k a year wasn't enough to live on and an 'insult' and wanted 30k. Like the extra £38 a week was a way of stopping being insulted.
Scabs might undermine your strike but if they don't agree with your opinions or politics who are you to force it on them?






It's been fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:15 am 
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cod'ead wrote:Scab, black-leg or strike-breaker, are not emotive, they are desriptive of the actions of non-union labour who otherwise would have been involved in agricultural haulage, taking an opportunity to profit at the expense of those who had withdrawn their labour in order to improve their working conditions. The fact that the scabs would also have ultimately benefited from any improvements in pay and conditions made it all the more unpaletable.

The vast majority of drivers were in the main trades unions: TGWU, URTU, USDAW; most of the non-unionised (and some unionised) drivers had been iven dispensations to engage in vital supplies, they and their employers chose to take advantage of the strike by engaging in general haulage, often by using amateur subterfuge. I remember driving a minibus full of pickets to a local factory after an attempted strike-break. When we arrived we found a truck with an animal feed dispensation sticker in the windscreen, his load was fully sheeted and hay could be seen at the bottom edges of the sheet. He'd glued hay to the chock rails, hoping we wouldn't question why a company like Smith & Nephew would need a delivery of animal feed


If it were legal most firms would pay higher wages to non union members - its a fallacy that unions always negotiate the best T&Cs. Significant numbers of people have lost their jobs because of the actions of unions - my own industry has seen huge factory closures, the PLC I work for has closed 13 in five years - the first to go are always those where UNITE has a significant presence.

Are you suggesting that if you are not a union member - I have never been a union member - that if the union calls a strike in the firm you work for you should also strike?






Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.

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 Post subject: Re: Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:59 am 
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I only ever had experience of working in one unionised industry, electrical contracting in the 1970s where every qualified electrician was a member of the EEPTU, it being virtually compulsory especially if you wanted to work on larger projects.

From memory they were a "mild" union in that we didn't have any strikes for the ten years I was in that trade and annual pay increases were simply agreed with the employers trade organisation, the ECA and others, from memory Frank Chapple was considered to be a moderate leader and from inside the trade he certainly kept a level playing field - reading a quick resume of his union in Wiki its obvious that he ruffled a few feathers in the TUC with his policy of single union agreements and they eventually evicted the EEPTU from the TUC :D

The only thing that ever caused us problems as employers was the strict dogma of no bonus payments on building sites, there were two rates for the two grades of electricians and they were considered to be the rate for the job, overtime rates were pre-agreed and that was that.

Of course in the real world both employers and employees would apply bonus schemes to contracts, we did it all the time, it was actually my job to survey the sites and work out the bonus targets for each section of work, and then pay them when complete within the time allotted - all of this was strictly against the union code and we would have had strikes called if they had found out, truth is that no-one told the union because it benefited everyone, our electricians earned the bonus on top of their standard rates for completing work quicker than estimated, and the company made more profit from doing so - we only ever had one very strong union electrician and he and I would spend hours sitting on drums of cable discussing his political views which rested somewhere to the left of Marx until eventually he'd look at his watch and declare that he'd better get on because he was on a good bonus run this week and he'd lost two hours already gabbing to me.

And THATS where I learned of the power of money over principal :lol:






Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece
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Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork
----------------------------------------------------------
JerryChicken - The Blog
----------------------------------------------------------

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 Post subject: Re: Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:32 am 
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Horatio Yed wrote:I've crossed picket lines, usually because i'm happy with my pay and conditions, if i don't agree with those on strike why penalize myself?
You'd say i was the one being selfish but personally i thought they were the ones being greedy.
I was in an industry that thought 28k a year wasn't enough to live on and an 'insult' and wanted 30k. Like the extra £38 a week was a way of stopping being insulted.
Scabs might undermine your strike but if they don't agree with your opinions or politics who are you to force it on them?


Boasting about being a scab makes you look like a complete w@nker.






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