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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"Has Ajw71 accepted the challenge yet of proving his claims?
It is remarkable how much such an obviously educated political intellect avoids direct questions, isn't it?'"
Of course not. He's disappeared. Like he always does when he knows he's cocked up. But probably then moves on to another identity... |
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| Quote JerryChicken="JerryChicken"Or for ever doubting him ?
Probably not being as Mitchell has yet to make a complaint to the police.
So much of this story has been buried, so much invented, its not the same story at all.'"
What really does grate with me is the fact that until a "trusted" government minister (if a whip can be termed such), cried about being fitted up by the old bill, the Westminster bubble was quite happy to let things plod (no pun intended) along as they always have done.
There's no doubt the police have been politicised and there's even less doubt that they have been found capable of influencing how investigations and trials were progressed. Were it you or I, we'd no doubt be charged with perverting the course of justice but some of these fookers seem to be totally above the law they are supposed to uphold.
The IPCC is not fit for purpose, even worse is asking one bunch of rozzers to investigate another bunch of rozzers. The Met has long been held up as epitomising everything that is wrong with policing, from corruption to institionalised racism. The sad fact is the politicians have allowed this to continue until one of their own is portrayed as a victim.
Look at the case of Daniel Morgan and you'll see something that is far, far worse than anything that Andrew Mitchell has ever endured. |
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| Quote cod'ead="cod'ead"What really does grate with me is the fact that until a "trusted" government minister (if a whip can be termed such), cried about being fitted up by the old bill, the Westminster bubble was quite happy to let things plod (no pun intended) along as they always have done.
There's no doubt the police have been politicised and there's even less doubt that they have been found capable of influencing how investigations and trials were progressed. Were it you or I, we'd no doubt be charged with perverting the course of justice but some of these fookers seem to be totally above the law they are supposed to uphold.
The IPCC is not fit for purpose, even worse is asking one bunch of rozzers to investigate another bunch of rozzers. The Met has long been held up as epitomising everything that is wrong with policing, from corruption to institionalised racism. The sad fact is the politicians have allowed this to continue until one of their own is portrayed as a victim.
Look at the case of Daniel Morgan and you'll see something that is far, far worse than anything that Andrew Mitchell has ever endured.'"
Not to mention that it is beyond doubt that Andrew Mitchell actually did something wrong and probably committed an offence that other people have arrested for. So, whilst the police actions need investigating (and as you point out, it's difficult to have confidence in their investigations of themselves - see Ian Tomlinson) I have little to no sympathy for Andrew Mitchell. |
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| Quote Ajw71="Ajw71"It's a shame the other thread on 'Plebgate' (shouldn't really call it that now should we) was locked. There were some cracking posts from Him and Kosh on there about there definitely not being a stitch up.
 '"
Feel free to quote one.
Go on - I challenge you. Just one will do.
I'll wait. |
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BTW - I caught part of 'This Week' last night and Portillo let slip that he'd heard Mitchell use the word 'in private'. He then had to flub around trying to claim it wasn't in a 'bad context'. Yeah, right.
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Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"..You are quite wrong to suggest Mitchell hasn't stated what he actually said...'"
This is the transcript of his meeting with the Police Federation representatives ...
www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/fi ... eeting.pdf
... in it he denies saying "f'ing pleb", "f'ing moron" or "you should know your f'ing place".
He admits swearing at the police.
He does not describe the conversation as you or I would in terms of "... I walked to the gate and I said this and then he said that and then I said etc etc ..." instead he denies certain words and admits to some others such as telling the police he was the Chief Whip and his office is at No.9 (like they wouldn't know that).
The full conversation (and tone), or even an attempt at it, is not given.
Many times he says that he does not want to say that the policemen were lying and he also says that he is not asking the Federation reps to choose between two recollections but to draw a line under it (he repeats many times that he wants that line drawn under it).
Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"...If you do not keep up to speed with all the evidence wouldn't it be better to refrain from making judgements? '"
My comment of it looking like he acted like a t0$$er is backed-up by his own admission of swearing and his own (possibly selectively) fragmented and scanty account of the conversation (see the transcript).
Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"...Most politicians act like t0$$ers yet you select this as more serious offence than police officers lying and give false statements, or of mounting a conspiracy against a democratically elected MP or of a police cover up at the highest level.'"
Do I?
Where have I said or implied that?
Sounds like you've already decided that the policemen are guilty ... that's OK is it? |
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Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"..You are quite wrong to suggest Mitchell hasn't stated what he actually said...'"
This is the transcript of his meeting with the Police Federation representatives ...
www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/fi ... eeting.pdf
... in it he denies saying "f'ing pleb", "f'ing moron" or "you should know your f'ing place".
He admits swearing at the police.
He does not describe the conversation as you or I would in terms of "... I walked to the gate and I said this and then he said that and then I said etc etc ..." instead he denies certain words and admits to some others such as telling the police he was the Chief Whip and his office is at No.9 (like they wouldn't know that).
The full conversation (and tone), or even an attempt at it, is not given.
Many times he says that he does not want to say that the policemen were lying and he also says that he is not asking the Federation reps to choose between two recollections but to draw a line under it (he repeats many times that he wants that line drawn under it).
Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"...If you do not keep up to speed with all the evidence wouldn't it be better to refrain from making judgements? '"
My comment of it looking like he acted like a t0$$er is backed-up by his own admission of swearing and his own (possibly selectively) fragmented and scanty account of the conversation (see the transcript).
Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"...Most politicians act like t0$$ers yet you select this as more serious offence than police officers lying and give false statements, or of mounting a conspiracy against a democratically elected MP or of a police cover up at the highest level.'"
Do I?
Where have I said or implied that?
Sounds like you've already decided that the policemen are guilty ... that's OK is it? | |
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| Quote Kosh="Kosh"Feel free to quote one.
Go on - I challenge you. Just one will do.
I'll wait.'"
ONE QUOTE
Quote Kosh="Kosh"So no conspiracy there. In fact no evidence whatsoever of any conspiracy anywhere. And the people harking on about police conspiracies aren't after 'truth and justice'. They're just desperate to score political points..'" |
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| Quote Kosh="Kosh"Feel free to quote one.
Go on - I challenge you. Just one will do.
I'll wait.'"
SECOND QUOTE
Quote Kosh="Kosh"My superior critical skills enable me not to see conspiracies where there is no evidence of any, and to realise that what's being investigated is (in one case) the conduct of a Police officer and (in the second) an unspecified offence that took place just a few days ago..'" |
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| Quote Kosh="Kosh"Feel free to quote one.
Go on - I challenge you. Just one will do.
I'll wait.'"
THIRD QUOTE
Quote Kosh="Kosh"Moreover, he fails to mention that the three West Midlands officers have been accused of exploiting media interest in the incident and not any involvement in fabricating evidence. There is not even a hint of any grand conspiracy..'" |
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| Quote Kosh="Kosh"Feel free to quote one.
Go on - I challenge you. Just one will do.
I'll wait.'"
FOURTH QUOTE
Quote Kosh="Kosh"What hasn't happened is the uncovering of any conspiracy whatsoever, which is what your new best friend asserted in his discredited OP.'" |
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| Quote Kosh="Kosh"BTW - I caught part of 'This Week' last night and Portillo let slip that he'd heard Mitchell use the word 'in private'. He then had to flub around trying to claim it wasn't in a 'bad context'. Yeah, right.'"
What Portillo said was that he was 100% sure Mitchell would never have used the word "Pleb" in the context the police alleged.
You failed to report that Labour MP Diane Abbott and the LibDem spokeslady each made clear on the same programe just how serious this case is and that if a posh boy MP can be "fit up" then what chance a poor black guy who the police stop in the street. And that these same police officers who have been proven to have lied and given false statements are the same ones that will be in court on another day giving evidence against some sole in the dock. |
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Quote El Barbudo="El Barbudo"This is the transcript of his meeting with the Police Federation representatives ...
www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/fi ... eeting.pdf
... in it he denies saying "f'ing pleb", "f'ing moron" or "you should know your f'ing place".
He admits swearing at the police.
He does not describe the conversation as you or I would in terms of "... I walked to the gate and I said this and then he said that and then I said etc etc ..." instead he denies certain words and admits to some others such as telling the police he was the Chief Whip and his office is at No.9 (like they wouldn't know that).
The full conversation (and tone), or even an attempt at it, is not given.
Many times he says that he does not want to say that the policemen were lying and he also says that he is not asking the Federation reps to choose between two recollections but to draw a line under it (he repeats many times that he wants that line drawn under it).
My comment of it looking like he acted like a t0$$er is backed-up by his own admission of swearing and his own (possibly selectively) fragmented and scanty account of the conversation (see the transcript).
Do I?
Where have I said or implied that?
Sounds like you've already decided that the policemen are guilty ... that's OK is it?'"
From the start it is you who judged Mitchell guilty without any proof and even though doubts quickly appeared regarding the dodgy police log you never displayed any balance in your postings which appear soley based on political prejudice and class.
Mitchell does not have to give a word perfect account of what was said. He has clearly and consistently stated that he did not say the offending words he was accused of and although he has admitted to using a swear word this is not the issue.
I have stated from the start that a man in this country is innocent until proved to be guilty. And it is for the prosecution to prove that guilt. The same goes for the police and I do hope they have their day in court, however there is real evidence already in the public domain to not only to cast doubt on the word of several police officers but audio tapes, video tapes and an email trail clearly show that several police officers are guilty in my opinion.
Police investigating themselves is sadly no longer reliable and it was left to Mitchell and journalists to prove so many police to be liars. Now this affair is moving from police lies and leaks to the more serious conspiracy and cover up charges with weak Chief Constables in the frame.
Yet none of this seems to trouble you as you persue your political agenda |
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Quote El Barbudo="El Barbudo"This is the transcript of his meeting with the Police Federation representatives ...
www.ipcc.gov.uk/sites/default/fi ... eeting.pdf
... in it he denies saying "f'ing pleb", "f'ing moron" or "you should know your f'ing place".
He admits swearing at the police.
He does not describe the conversation as you or I would in terms of "... I walked to the gate and I said this and then he said that and then I said etc etc ..." instead he denies certain words and admits to some others such as telling the police he was the Chief Whip and his office is at No.9 (like they wouldn't know that).
The full conversation (and tone), or even an attempt at it, is not given.
Many times he says that he does not want to say that the policemen were lying and he also says that he is not asking the Federation reps to choose between two recollections but to draw a line under it (he repeats many times that he wants that line drawn under it).
My comment of it looking like he acted like a t0$$er is backed-up by his own admission of swearing and his own (possibly selectively) fragmented and scanty account of the conversation (see the transcript).
Do I?
Where have I said or implied that?
Sounds like you've already decided that the policemen are guilty ... that's OK is it?'"
From the start it is you who judged Mitchell guilty without any proof and even though doubts quickly appeared regarding the dodgy police log you never displayed any balance in your postings which appear soley based on political prejudice and class.
Mitchell does not have to give a word perfect account of what was said. He has clearly and consistently stated that he did not say the offending words he was accused of and although he has admitted to using a swear word this is not the issue.
I have stated from the start that a man in this country is innocent until proved to be guilty. And it is for the prosecution to prove that guilt. The same goes for the police and I do hope they have their day in court, however there is real evidence already in the public domain to not only to cast doubt on the word of several police officers but audio tapes, video tapes and an email trail clearly show that several police officers are guilty in my opinion.
Police investigating themselves is sadly no longer reliable and it was left to Mitchell and journalists to prove so many police to be liars. Now this affair is moving from police lies and leaks to the more serious conspiracy and cover up charges with weak Chief Constables in the frame.
Yet none of this seems to trouble you as you persue your political agenda | |
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| Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"From the start it is you who judged Mitchell guilty without any proof ... '"
That is a lie or you are mistaken.
Which is it?
Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"I have stated from the start that a man in this country is innocent until proved to be guilty. And it is for the prosecution to prove that guilt. The same goes for the police and I do hope they have their day in court, however there is real evidence already in the public domain to not only to cast doubt on the word of several police officers but audio tapes, video tapes and an email trail clearly show that several police officers are guilty in my opinion.'"
You don't see the contradiction there? |
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| Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"What Portillo said was that he was 100% sure Mitchell would never have used the word "Pleb" in the context the police alleged.'"
Indeed he did. That was an opinion. His claim to have heard him use the word in private was a claim of fact. Maybe you can tell the difference?
Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"You failed to report that Labour MP Diane Abbott and the LibDem spokeslady each made clear on the same programe just how serious this case is and that if a posh boy MP can be "fit up" then what chance a poor black guy who the police stop in the street. And that these same police officers who have been proven to have lied and given false statements are the same ones that will be in court on another day giving evidence against some sole in the dock.'"
As far as I'm aware, the seriousness of police honesty and reliability hasn't ever been questioned. By anyone.
As to your multiple quotes earlier - not one of them proves the allegation made. But I don't expect you to be able to understand that as your critical thinking skills have been proven to be third rate at best on numerous occasions. |
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[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24584328Did anyone think you could trust anything Portillo says?[/url
Frankly, now saying he "misspoke" means you cannot trust anything he says on this subject at least.
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| Quote El Barbudo="El Barbudo"That is a lie or you are mistaken.
Which is it??'"
The truth lies in your answer to the following question I posed to you
Quote El Barbudo="Lord Elpers"
... To publish in print an untruth about someone which will do harm to that persons's reputation by tending to bring them into ridicule or contempt of others is libel... '"
Quote El Barbudo="El Barbudo"There you go then.
This being Andrew Mitchell, there was no "bringing" involved, he was already there. '"
and you had previously stated about Mitchell
Quote El Barbudo="El Barbudo"Obnoxious fool and bully sounds about the right sort of personality (if that's the right word) for that role.'"
These were one eyed and prejudiced comments. You were not even handed in your comments and never suggested that Mitchell could be innocent or that there may be doubt about the police statements. So do not pretend you didn't side with the police version rather than Mitchell's.
Y Quote El Barbudo="El Barbudo"ou don't see the contradiction there?'"
There is no contradiction. Mitchell was the accused yet no proof has been offered to back up the dodgy police log. Until this happens his innocence should be presumed. However there is now plenty of evidence against the police version of events with 8 people arrested so far. But these are two very different cases now. Of course the police officers are innocent until proven guilty in court. But the big difference is that in their case we have already seen sufficient evidence to know several police officers have lied which is way beyond doubt.
Be honest you had him banged to rights because he was a posh Tory boy and for no other reason. |
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| Quote El Barbudo="El Barbudo"He admits swearing at the police.'"
No he doesn't. What he admits to is saying as he walked away from them towards the gate was...."I thought you lot were supposed to f...ing help us" This is not swearing at the police but using a swear word as an adjective. And lets not get carried away this word is now part of our common language used every day on TV and published in papers and books.
Quote El Barbudo="El Barbudo"The full conversation (and tone), or even an attempt at it, is not given.'"
This full conversation lasted 40 seconds and he has given his version in bits. The key bit being his utter denial of using andy of the 3 toxic phrases.
Quote El Barbudo="El Barbudo"My comment of it looking like he acted like a t0$$er is backed-up by his own admission of swearing and his own (possibly selectively) fragmented and scanty account of the conversation (see the transcript).'"
Get real ...if swearing in the above way means you are a t0$$er then so are 99% of the population including I guess 99.99% of the police. |
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| Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"No he doesn't. What he admits to is saying as he walked away from them towards the gate was...."I thought you lot were supposed to f...ing help us" '"
Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"This is not swearing at the police but using a swear word as an adjective. And lets not get carried away this word is now part of our common language used every day on TV and published in papers and books.'"
Yes it is, the comment was directed at the PC involved.
No amount of bluster will get away from this. |
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| Quote Big Graeme="Big Graeme"Yes it is, the comment was directed at the PC involved.
No amount of bluster will get away from this.'"
Nor will it erase the small matter of Cameron accepting Mitchells resignation and not defending him at the time, or since, over what was said at the gate.
Lets reiterate - a few weeks previous Mitchell was Camerons personal appointment to the Chief Whips office, an office at No9 Downing St and all that goes with it, a favoured appointment to someone who came with a reputation for being a strict disciplinarian, obviously a feature that Cameron decided that he needed within his party.
Just a few short weeks later he is expunged from the records - you don't do that to an old mate unless you have good reason to - and he has never discussed the issue of what happened at the gate since. |
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| Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"
Yet none of this seems to trouble you as you persue your political agenda'"
Therein lies the problem Lord Elpers.
They are so blinded by their political and Tory hating agenda that they are unable to view events from a balanced objective perspective to the extent that they disregard facts as if they don't even exist. Utterly pointless to try and argue with them. |
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| Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"SECOND QUOTE
'"
This is brilliant - "superior critical thinking skills"
Quote Lord Elpers="Kosh"
My superior critical skills enable me not to see conspiracies where there is no evidence of any, and to realise that what's being investigated is (in one case) the conduct of a Police officer and (in the second) an unspecified offence that took place just a few days ago..
'"
Epic fail from the forum's most pompous poster. |
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| Quote Ajw71="Ajw71"Therein lies the problem Lord Elpers.
They are so blinded by their political and Tory hating agenda that they are unable to view events from a balanced objective perspective to the extent that they disregard facts as if they don't even exist. Utterly pointless to try and argue with them.'"
Bothered answering any of the direct questions you've been repeatedly asked in a number of threads? |
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| Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"...These were one eyed and prejudiced comments. You were not even handed in your comments and never suggested that Mitchell could be innocent or that there may be doubt about the police statements. So do not pretend you didn't side with the police version rather than Mitchell's...'"
"not even-handed in your comments"?
So, because I didn't declare that he was innocent, therefore I was saying that he was guilty?
That's the logic of a twerp.
Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"...There is no contradiction. Mitchell was the accused yet no proof has been offered to back up the dodgy police log. Until this happens his innocence should be presumed. However there is now plenty of evidence against the police version of events with 8 people arrested so far. But these are two very different cases now. Of course the police officers are innocent until proven guilty in court. But the big difference is that in their case we have already seen sufficient evidence to know several police officers have lied which is way beyond doubt...'"
If you are going to presume innocence, you cannot prejudge .. and you have pre-judged the police, no presumption of innocence shown at all.
Your guess may well turn out to be correct but it remains a pre-judgement, regardless of any pompous declarations to the contrary.
Quote Lord Elpers="Lord Elpers"...Be honest you had him banged to rights because he was a posh Tory boy and for no other reason.'"
At no time have I said he is guilty of anything other than being a t0$$er and that [uIF[/u he had the nasty bullying qualities that someone had ascribed to him in that thread then he was perfect for his role as Chief Whip. (A quote from which you carefully stripped the context.)
In the old thread to which you keep referring, you will of course have noted where I actually said that (posh tory boy) Cameron's knowledge (or otherwise) of Latin was [unot[/u something about which to blame him.
Your high horse is way too high for you, you are confusing your own bombast with devastating logic ... and it ain't. |
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| Feb 2002 | 23 years | |
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| Jan 2014 | Jan 2014 | LINK |
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| Quote Ajw71="Ajw71"Therein lies the problem Lord Elpers.
They are so blinded by their political and Tory hating agenda that they are unable to view events from a balanced objective perspective to the extent that they disregard facts as if they don't even exist. Utterly pointless to try and argue with them.'"
At least Lord Elpless puts forward a case, albeit a flawed one ... you, on the other hand, just pop up from behind his coat tails and blurt the equivalent of "Yah Boo".
Answered any questions yet sonny? |
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| International Chairman | 14970 | No
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| Jun 2002 | 23 years | |
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| Nov 2021 | Nov 2021 | LINK |
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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"Bothered answering any of the direct questions you've been repeatedly asked in a number of threads?'"
Has he gone again? That was quick. |
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