Joined: Oct 19 2003 Posts: 17898 Location: Packed like sardines, in a tin
bren2k wrote:Indeed - if the NHS and Social Care looks stretched paper thin now, imagine what it would look like without all the migrant workers.
If we made a start by getting rid of EU footballers we might end up with a stronger national team. Of course for all the "close the borders" mob, footballers aren't immigrants.
wrencat1873 wrote:So, by agreeing some rights for EU residents currently living in the UK, we are putting the rights of UK citizens living in Europe at risk ? Is any kind of sensible debate, these people would be allowed to remain where they are and not used as bargaining chips in the Brexit deal. How much is a British citizen worth compared to an EU citizen ?
The UK will not expel people already here but government needs the flexibility to argue it will if the EU starts saying it will expel British ex-pats. Britain is on a hiding to nothing in negotiations with 27 other countries and needs to keep all its options open to get anything meaningful out of those negotiations. To look at it from a purely British perspective is as foolish as it is naïve. We could take the so called high moral ground and announce in advance that EU citizens can stay and even that we'd give them all £1m each but the other EU could still take the low moral ground and expel all Brits. Have EU countries announced they will allow British citizens to stay in their countries (if they have I apologise that I have missed that)? If not, why are you criticising the UK government for using people as "bargaining chips" and not the other EU countries? I simply cannot understand such thinking.
Dally wrote:The UK will not expel people already here but government needs the flexibility to argue it will if the EU starts saying it will expel British ex-pats. Britain is on a hiding to nothing in negotiations with 27 other countries and needs to keep all its options open to get anything meaningful out of those negotiations. To look at it from a purely British perspective is as foolish as it is naïve. We could take the so called high moral ground and announce in advance that EU citizens can stay and even that we'd give them all £1m each but the other EU could still take the low moral ground and expel all Brits. Have EU countries announced they will allow British citizens to stay in their countries (if they have I apologise that I have missed that)? If not, why are you criticising the UK government for using people as "bargaining chips" and not the other EU countries? I simply cannot understand such thinking.
Sometimes, you have to do what is right and live with the consequences and far from weakening our position, an early move like this, could help us in the long run.
It's strange that these sorts of issues barely got a mention in the referendum campaign and at the time Farage just wanted to stop "them" coming.
The situation in Ireland is possibly the most difficult to solve.
Having gone from open borders and free trade, their situation could get very messy indeed and if their choice is to go with a united Ireland or a smugglers paradise, there will be some difficult choices for those in power.
Joined: Aug 09 2011 Posts: 1906 Location: Deepest North Yorkshire Woodland
At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious the whole situation looks catastrophic. All could have been resolved when Cameron asked for consessions from Brussels. They sent him back to the U.K with nothing. If he could have come back with a promise of temporary freeze on immigration brexit would have failed. I am beginning to think the Germans are the villains in the ecc, they are sat on a mountain of cash whilst Italy and Greece are screwed. Trump is right in asking them to pay more into NATO. The German response is to pour scorn on trump. This after the Americans and British spent a small fortune at the height of the Cold War with troops and armaments potentially defending a Russian invasion into Germany. Not to mention the Marshall plan the Americans instigated to rebuild Germany after the Second World War . I note the ecc are now going after le pen in France . They know full well if she wins the the game is up for the ecc. They will succeed in stopping her with the help of the current French government . Meanwhile youth unemployment in Italy and Spain is still sky high. The Italian banks are virtually bust. Greece once again is having to be bailed out, what a complete shambles.
Backwoodsman wrote:At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious the whole situation looks catastrophic. All could have been resolved when Cameron asked for consessions from Brussels. They sent him back to the U.K with nothing. If he could have come back with a promise of temporary freeze on immigration brexit would have failed. I am beginning to think the Germans are the villains in the ecc, they are sat on a mountain of cash whilst Italy and Greece are screwed. Trump is right in asking them to pay more into NATO. The German response is to pour scorn on trump. This after the Americans and British spent a small fortune at the height of the Cold War with troops and armaments potentially defending a Russian invasion into Germany. Not to mention the Marshall plan the Americans instigated to rebuild Germany after the Second World War . I note the ecc are now going after le pen in France . They know full well if she wins the the game is up for the ecc. They will succeed in stopping her with the help of the current French government . Meanwhile youth unemployment in Italy and Spain is still sky high. The Italian banks are virtually bust. Greece once again is having to be bailed out, what a complete shambles.
This is the whole issue - the EU benefits Germany and ultimately Germany alone. Their economy will take huge hit if the EU disintegrates. If we get out (note if, not when) and our funding contribution ceases the EU will need to change - because Germany won't wish to pile more funding in. It'll end up either disintegrating, fully integrating (although that would still cost Germany) or restructuring to something like the UK wanted all along.
Joined: Oct 26 2005 Posts: 3829 Location: In the seaside town ...that they forgot to bomb
Dally wrote:This is the whole issue - the EU benefits Germany and ultimately Germany alone. Their economy will take huge hit if the EU disintegrates. If we get out (note if, not when) and our funding contribution ceases the EU will need to change - because Germany won't wish to pile more funding in. It'll end up either disintegrating, fully integrating (although that would still cost Germany) or restructuring to something like the UK wanted all along.
What makes you feel so unsure?
I don't see anything looming that will change the decision.
Please enlighten me, I need cheering up (In a non-rugby sense)
In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats! They're eating the pets!
wire-quin wrote:Seems like the PM may be getting on with it, possibly Tuesday.
Lets see what come with it.
Dont hold your breath. She may trigger article 50 but, the "experts" are suggesting that there is 35/40% chance of "no deal" which will do wonders for inflation. All the experts who "did their research" and voted out (along with the rest of us) could be left paying heavily for their "fingers crossed" approach to Brexit. Blind faith wins the day and what a joy it will be.
Scotland are likely to go for another referendum and Sinn Fein could well get their wish of a united Ireland, which just shows that the pen, indeed, is mightier than the sword (or bombs and bullets in the case of Sinn Fein).
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