Joined: Dec 22 2001 Posts: 7155 Location: Sydney 2000
Sal Paradise wrote:I really like Burgundy but I also love Italian wines especially Chianti, top Soave and Barolo/Barbera/Dolcetto.
My brother's a wine buff. He was talking about these Italian wines from the Primitivo grape, or something or other (I should have listened properly) and mentioned he found this rare variety that was cheaper but scientifically has around 97% of the same DNA as Primitivo.
I pointed out to him that it sounds good, but isn't that the difference in DNA between us and an Orang Utan?
Ferocious Aardvark wrote:Carrot wine. Poor Man's Whisky. And just about free.
Sal Paradise wrote:Completely disagree - the climatic conditions in Otago or Marlborough are similar to those you would experience between Marsannay and Santenay. They may even be on similar latitudes either side of the equater. There will very few vines in Burgundy over a hundred years old - yields would be uneconomic - also most of the vines were destroyed by phylloxera between 1870 and 1880.
The average alcohol of good Burgundy is 13.5-14% very similar to the levels you see in NZ, in fact 14% is the highest you would expect from red wine. Are you seriously suggesting top Burgundy lacks depth and body I would suggest the opposite if anything NZ lacks real power and body.
If you ask the top pinot growers in NZ what their inspiration is they will all say Burgundy, in fact you will struggle to find a top grower that has not spent at least one harvest in Burgundy hoping to understand what makes its pinot so special.
With all the variations in clone choice, cultivation, terroir, climate, vinification, ageing processes etc. NZ Pinot is never going to be Burgundy and vice versa. I would disagree that you would find an average Burgundy at 14%, 13% certainly but the majority of the lower village wines are 12.5% to 13%. Bear in mind also that the climatic conditions in say Otago are different to say Santenay which is four to five times further from the coast compared to Otago. I don’t think I suggested that burgundy wines lack depth or body they are certainly not as full on as NZ pinot noir, this is universally accepted. I find they (burgs) have more finesse and detectable structure. Probably a fair point is that NZ Pinot Noir is often consumed too young. I spend 3 to 4 months each year in burgundy (I bought a house there) and through friends and neighbours I spend a great deal of time at various vineyards most recently just after the 2012 harvest with Domaine Vincent Girardin in Santenay. You are right to suggest that growers from NZ visit Burgundy they do, in fact whilst I was there two producers from NZ visited the Domaine including people from Felton Road. Paraphrasing comments from the winemakers of Felton road they said, Burgundian wine-makers are largely shaped by tradition, and by the wines of their neighbours. Thus wine-making choices are made that produce these sort of wines. Of course, there is experimentation all the time - at the edges, by "in-comers" and by outward looking producers and over time change the shape & taste of Burgundy.
On the other hand, they believed that New World Pinot - with no traditions to follow - has aspired to produce what the market wants, either directly for the large corporations, or by following the judgement and advice of wine-show judges. They did not express any desire to produce wines like those of the Burgundy region. I particularly like this book on pinot noir, http://www.burgundy-report.com/autumn-2011/in-search-of-pinot-noir-benjamin-lewin-mw-2011/
Sal Paradise wrote:Completely disagree - the climatic conditions in Otago or Marlborough are similar to those you would experience between Marsannay and Santenay. They may even be on similar latitudes either side of the equater. There will very few vines in Burgundy over a hundred years old - yields would be uneconomic - also most of the vines were destroyed by phylloxera between 1870 and 1880.
The average alcohol of good Burgundy is 13.5-14% very similar to the levels you see in NZ, in fact 14% is the highest you would expect from red wine. Are you seriously suggesting top Burgundy lacks depth and body I would suggest the opposite if anything NZ lacks real power and body.
If you ask the top pinot growers in NZ what their inspiration is they will all say Burgundy, in fact you will struggle to find a top grower that has not spent at least one harvest in Burgundy hoping to understand what makes its pinot so special.
With all the variations in clone choice, cultivation, terroir, climate, vinification, ageing processes etc. NZ Pinot is never going to be Burgundy and vice versa. I would disagree that you would find an average Burgundy at 14%, 13% certainly but the majority of the lower village wines are 12.5% to 13%. Bear in mind also that the climatic conditions in say Otago are different to say Santenay which is four to five times further from the coast compared to Otago. I don’t think I suggested that burgundy wines lack depth or body they are certainly not as full on as NZ pinot noir, this is universally accepted. I find they (burgs) have more finesse and detectable structure. Probably a fair point is that NZ Pinot Noir is often consumed too young. I spend 3 to 4 months each year in burgundy (I bought a house there) and through friends and neighbours I spend a great deal of time at various vineyards most recently just after the 2012 harvest with Domaine Vincent Girardin in Santenay. You are right to suggest that growers from NZ visit Burgundy they do, in fact whilst I was there two producers from NZ visited the Domaine including people from Felton Road. Paraphrasing comments from the winemakers of Felton road they said, Burgundian wine-makers are largely shaped by tradition, and by the wines of their neighbours. Thus wine-making choices are made that produce these sort of wines. Of course, there is experimentation all the time - at the edges, by "in-comers" and by outward looking producers and over time change the shape & taste of Burgundy.
On the other hand, they believed that New World Pinot - with no traditions to follow - has aspired to produce what the market wants, either directly for the large corporations, or by following the judgement and advice of wine-show judges. They did not express any desire to produce wines like those of the Burgundy region. I particularly like this book on pinot noir, http://www.burgundy-report.com/autumn-2011/in-search-of-pinot-noir-benjamin-lewin-mw-2011/
"...……. et jusqu’a ma mort je me rappellerai chaque seconde de ce matin de janvier."
Joined: Feb 27 2002 Posts: 18060 Location: On the road
peggy wrote:With all the variations in clone choice, cultivation, terroir, climate, vinification, ageing processes etc. NZ Pinot is never going to be Burgundy and vice versa. I would disagree that you would find an average Burgundy at 14%, 13% certainly but the majority of the lower village wines are 12.5% to 13%. Bear in mind also that the climatic conditions in say Otago are different to say Santenay which is four to five times further from the coast compared to Otago. I don’t think I suggested that burgundy wines lack depth or body they are certainly not as full on as NZ pinot noir, this is universally accepted. I find they (burgs) have more finesse and detectable structure. Probably a fair point is that NZ Pinot Noir is often consumed too young. I spend 3 to 4 months each year in burgundy (I bought a house there) and through friends and neighbours I spend a great deal of time at various vineyards most recently just after the 2012 harvest with Domaine Vincent Girardin in Santenay. You are right to suggest that growers from NZ visit Burgundy they do, in fact whilst I was there two producers from NZ visited the Domaine including people from Felton Road. Paraphrasing comments from the winemakers of Felton road they said, Burgundian wine-makers are largely shaped by tradition, and by the wines of their neighbours. Thus wine-making choices are made that produce these sort of wines. Of course, there is experimentation all the time - at the edges, by "in-comers" and by outward looking producers and over time change the shape & taste of Burgundy.
On the other hand, they believed that New World Pinot - with no traditions to follow - has aspired to produce what the market wants, either directly for the large corporations, or by following the judgement and advice of wine-show judges. They did not express any desire to produce wines like those of the Burgundy region. I particularly like this book on pinot noir, http://www.burgundy-report.com/autumn-2011/in-search-of-pinot-noir-benjamin-lewin-mw-2011/
The last paragraph begs the question why are the NZ growers in Burgundy at all if they want to produce completely different wines?
Burgundy is an area of constant change, the style of wines changed significantly after Henry Jayer showed everyone what can be extracted from Pinot grapes.
Oenologists such as Accad have influenced the vinification process, and biodynamics in the vineyards have seen wines of greater clarity and purity.
We must agree to differ as to whether NZ growers are trying to emulate Burgundy. I certainly would not agree that Kiwi Pinot is seen as fuller than Burgundy - especially if you get wines from reasonable growers, I could see it if you were comparing to Boisset or other volume negociants.
peggy wrote:With all the variations in clone choice, cultivation, terroir, climate, vinification, ageing processes etc. NZ Pinot is never going to be Burgundy and vice versa. I would disagree that you would find an average Burgundy at 14%, 13% certainly but the majority of the lower village wines are 12.5% to 13%. Bear in mind also that the climatic conditions in say Otago are different to say Santenay which is four to five times further from the coast compared to Otago. I don’t think I suggested that burgundy wines lack depth or body they are certainly not as full on as NZ pinot noir, this is universally accepted. I find they (burgs) have more finesse and detectable structure. Probably a fair point is that NZ Pinot Noir is often consumed too young. I spend 3 to 4 months each year in burgundy (I bought a house there) and through friends and neighbours I spend a great deal of time at various vineyards most recently just after the 2012 harvest with Domaine Vincent Girardin in Santenay. You are right to suggest that growers from NZ visit Burgundy they do, in fact whilst I was there two producers from NZ visited the Domaine including people from Felton Road. Paraphrasing comments from the winemakers of Felton road they said, Burgundian wine-makers are largely shaped by tradition, and by the wines of their neighbours. Thus wine-making choices are made that produce these sort of wines. Of course, there is experimentation all the time - at the edges, by "in-comers" and by outward looking producers and over time change the shape & taste of Burgundy.
On the other hand, they believed that New World Pinot - with no traditions to follow - has aspired to produce what the market wants, either directly for the large corporations, or by following the judgement and advice of wine-show judges. They did not express any desire to produce wines like those of the Burgundy region. I particularly like this book on pinot noir, http://www.burgundy-report.com/autumn-2011/in-search-of-pinot-noir-benjamin-lewin-mw-2011/
The last paragraph begs the question why are the NZ growers in Burgundy at all if they want to produce completely different wines?
Burgundy is an area of constant change, the style of wines changed significantly after Henry Jayer showed everyone what can be extracted from Pinot grapes.
Oenologists such as Accad have influenced the vinification process, and biodynamics in the vineyards have seen wines of greater clarity and purity.
We must agree to differ as to whether NZ growers are trying to emulate Burgundy. I certainly would not agree that Kiwi Pinot is seen as fuller than Burgundy - especially if you get wines from reasonable growers, I could see it if you were comparing to Boisset or other volume negociants.
Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.
it is not a case of the producers wanting to copy the wines of Burgundy, it often that they want to see how the grape is managed and as you point out extracting the flavour is done to a greater or lesser degree depending on producer, this knowledge amongst other factors is important to produce the best you can given the controlling circumstances. It is a bit of a busmans holiday / sharing of knowledge and techniques arrangement. I have to say you are using the two opposite ends of the spectrum when quoting Jayer and JC Boisset. I personnaly prefer unfiltered wines in the style of Jayer.
"...……. et jusqu’a ma mort je me rappellerai chaque seconde de ce matin de janvier."
http://www.wine-searcher.com/m/2013/01/city-of-dijon-sells-off-old-wines Praise for Burgundy indeed. They could have given the bottles away to the people of Dijon to go with their cake. Jayer wine for nearly 5k, five times the reserve price. The Chinese are buying everything at inflated prices.
http://www.wine-searcher.com/m/2013/01/city-of-dijon-sells-off-old-wines Praise for Burgundy indeed. They could have given the bottles away to the people of Dijon to go with their cake. Jayer wine for nearly 5k, five times the reserve price. The Chinese are buying everything at inflated prices.
"...……. et jusqu’a ma mort je me rappellerai chaque seconde de ce matin de janvier."
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