Joined: Jul 22 2008 Posts: 16170 Location: Somewhere other than here
JerryChicken wrote:The problems start when those well-thought through arrived at with conscience decisions have a starting point rooted in religion for if any of the major religions are your base point in understanding issue sof equality that directly contravine the hard and fast rules of that religion then your starting point is flawed for you can never oppose those hard and fast rules without denying your religion.
You are making two erroneous assumptions here: firstly, that all religions are the same (which they are not) and secondly, that everyone thinks in a vacuum (which they do not).
Even those who are very devout in their religious practice are influenced by their national culture, their family culture and their individual experience which colours their judgments and interpretations of what their religion may be requiring. Personally I find the study of religious belief fascinating, and always have, because it is very subtle. The people who hold to beliefs may not be subtle, but the beliefs themselves are. Some are positively enigmatic.
You have your own value system; your neighbour will have theirs. You will believe your value system is right and you will teach your value system to your children. You are no different from religious people in that respect. Or indeed in other respects.
Success is not final; failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. (Winston Churchill)
SaintsFan wrote:You are making two erroneous assumptions here: firstly, that all religions are the same (which they are not) and secondly, that everyone thinks in a vacuum (which they do not).
Even those who are very devout in their religious practice are influenced by their national culture, their family culture and their individual experience which colours their judgments and interpretations of what their religion may be requiring. Personally I find the study of religious belief fascinating, and always have, because it is very subtle. The people who hold to beliefs may not be subtle, but the beliefs themselves are. Some are positively enigmatic.
You have your own value system; your neighbour will have theirs. You will believe your value system is right and you will teach your value system to your children. You are no different from religious people in that respect. Or indeed in other respects.
But to go back to my point, when your well thought out discussion point has as its starting point a belief system that has told you that homosexual marriage is impossible within the confines of your religion, then you are going to find it very difficult to reconcile that viewpoint even in your own mind let alone admit to anyone that you think your religion has got it wrong ("your religion" being in the thrid party and not literally "your" religion).
Your opinion, based on a conscience developed by years of indoctrination, is by definition already tainted by prejudice before you even start to reason.
Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece ---------------------------------------------------------- Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork ---------------------------------------------------------- JerryChicken - The Blog ----------------------------------------------------------
SaintsFan wrote:...But from what you have said so far you sound like you embrace homosexuality and gay marriage.
Neither of those things hurt me or you or anyone, hence "I'm fine with it".
Not only that, but we must remember that gay, bi, lesbian and trasgender people are PEOPLE, valuable human beings like the rest of us, with the same range of emotions, strengths, weaknesses, conversation and contribution to humanity as the rest of humankind. I have no right to tell them what they should and should not do with their genitals, any more than I have the right to tell you. I also have no right to tell them they are not allowed to love each other, or get married.
Hence, I welcome the moves towards same-sex marriage and will be pleased to see people being allowed to marry the one they love, just like I did.
Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice. Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.
Mintball wrote:Look, you're a teacher, IIRC. Do you believe that, in education, children should be taught facts?
Yes, but not only facts. Actually, it is very difficult to teach only facts, even in science, which most people assume to be very fact based. There is so much theory also.
You mean like the theory of gravity, or the theory of evolution?
Christianity: because you're so awful you made God kill himself.
SaintsFan wrote:Not at all. Decent people can usually determine the difference between a view that has been thought through and arrived at with conscience, and bigotry. The two are different and both can apply to any subject, not just being gay.
!
If you 'think through' homosexuality and/or equal marriage and decide that either or both are wrong (or should be treated in any way differently to heterosexuality), then you have not arrived at your conclusion 'with conscience', but with bigotry.
Christianity: because you're so awful you made God kill himself.
SaintsFan wrote: You have your own value system; your neighbour will have theirs. You will believe your value system is right and you will teach your value system to your children. You are no different from religious people in that respect. Or indeed in other respects.
The values you live by might actually be similar to mine but, nonetheless, we differ in that my value system is not based on myth.
Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice. Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.
Joined: Apr 06 2004 Posts: 4420 Location: The Pavilion, Hilton St
Rock God X wrote:If you 'think through' homosexuality and/or equal marriage and decide that either or both are wrong (or should be treated in any way differently to heterosexuality), then you have not arrived at your conclusion 'with conscience', but with bigotry.
According to you.
Who made you the judge of who is bigoted and who isn't?
Joined: Jul 22 2008 Posts: 16170 Location: Somewhere other than here
Rock God X wrote:If you 'think through' homosexuality and/or equal marriage and decide that either or both are wrong (or should be treated in any way differently to heterosexuality), then you have not arrived at your conclusion 'with conscience', but with bigotry.
Really? Oh, I see. So, a person can think through something with conscience but if they happen to conclude differently from yourself then they are bigoted? And yet you say you are not bigoted? You aren't actually worth taking seriously.
Success is not final; failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. (Winston Churchill)
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You aren't actually worth taking seriously.
