Joined: May 25 2002 Posts: 37704 Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
Sal Paradise wrote:The problem is you are in a minority - supply and demand suggests the need for traditional butchers is on the decline. No one is forced to use a supermarket, Tesco's haven't got a load of staff and prevented customers visiting your butcher. The problem is that for most of us the opportunity cost of visting numerous retailers cannot be justified by the enhanced experience we encounter.
Well it's obvious that Tesco et al have got you well & truly hooked.
I'm currently operating a franchise, supplying frozen fish meat & poultry and speciality dishes, direct to the door. I have little problem selling ribeye steak at £33 per kilo because when anyone who knows what real steak should look like, they immediately appreciate the difference. Our ribeye, sirloin and fillet comes from a grass-fed, Somerset herd and is hung for 28 days before butchering. Sainsbury's once embarked on a great advertising campaign, shouting that their beef was 21 day matured. It wasn't a great success because they'd already convinced their customers that beef should be red in colour and not chestnut bordering on mahogany. Even my local butcher (a man who knows the name of the beast the cut came from), no longer puts his best cuts in the window, simply because many of his customers have been similarly "conditioned". Many beef joints sold in supermarkets are topside or silverside, both joints that should only really be pot-roasted because they don't have the natural fat to keep them moist. Look at the cooking instructions and they'll tell you nothing about slow or pot-roasting.
Similarly, I sell salmon fillet at £25 per kilo and have never received a single complaint, in fact it's my single best selling product. The difference between my North Atlantic, wild-caught salmon is streets away from the farmed salmon on sale in any supermarket. Next time you visit a supermarket's fishmonger slab, take a close look at the salmon. They keep the skin on to avoid you seeing the layer of fat between the skin and flesh, similarly those white lines that branch from the centre are also fat. Wild salmon is all muscle. I gave a woman a salmon fillet this afternoon, free, gratis and for nothing. She told me she only bought salmon tail fillet because it was less "oily" than the loins. I am convinced I'll have no problem selling her a 2 kilo box next time I visit.
I boast that "If I wouldn't eat it, you won't find it on my van". I wouldn't carry any cod during December because I wasn't happy with the quality. I refuse to ever carry pangasius at all. If you're wondering what pangasius is, you may find it listed as "cobbler" or "Basa". In reality, pangasius is Vietnamese river catfish ad a dirtier fish would be difficult to find on sale, yet the supermarkets are quite happy to stock it. Please don't tell me, that was through customer demand.
I rarely buy any fish or meat from a supermarket because the "fishmongers" and "butchers" employed by them are anything but. Try asking a supermarket butcher for a bone-in shoulder of pork, you won't get it, simply because "head office don't supply it". Now try and find a proper butcher who can supply a joint from a traditional breed like Gloucester Old Spot and follow and I gurantee you really will "taste the difference".
Sal Paradise wrote:The problem is you are in a minority - supply and demand suggests the need for traditional butchers is on the decline. No one is forced to use a supermarket, Tesco's haven't got a load of staff and prevented customers visiting your butcher. The problem is that for most of us the opportunity cost of visting numerous retailers cannot be justified by the enhanced experience we encounter.
Well it's obvious that Tesco et al have got you well & truly hooked.
I'm currently operating a franchise, supplying frozen fish meat & poultry and speciality dishes, direct to the door. I have little problem selling ribeye steak at £33 per kilo because when anyone who knows what real steak should look like, they immediately appreciate the difference. Our ribeye, sirloin and fillet comes from a grass-fed, Somerset herd and is hung for 28 days before butchering. Sainsbury's once embarked on a great advertising campaign, shouting that their beef was 21 day matured. It wasn't a great success because they'd already convinced their customers that beef should be red in colour and not chestnut bordering on mahogany. Even my local butcher (a man who knows the name of the beast the cut came from), no longer puts his best cuts in the window, simply because many of his customers have been similarly "conditioned". Many beef joints sold in supermarkets are topside or silverside, both joints that should only really be pot-roasted because they don't have the natural fat to keep them moist. Look at the cooking instructions and they'll tell you nothing about slow or pot-roasting.
Similarly, I sell salmon fillet at £25 per kilo and have never received a single complaint, in fact it's my single best selling product. The difference between my North Atlantic, wild-caught salmon is streets away from the farmed salmon on sale in any supermarket. Next time you visit a supermarket's fishmonger slab, take a close look at the salmon. They keep the skin on to avoid you seeing the layer of fat between the skin and flesh, similarly those white lines that branch from the centre are also fat. Wild salmon is all muscle. I gave a woman a salmon fillet this afternoon, free, gratis and for nothing. She told me she only bought salmon tail fillet because it was less "oily" than the loins. I am convinced I'll have no problem selling her a 2 kilo box next time I visit.
I boast that "If I wouldn't eat it, you won't find it on my van". I wouldn't carry any cod during December because I wasn't happy with the quality. I refuse to ever carry pangasius at all. If you're wondering what pangasius is, you may find it listed as "cobbler" or "Basa". In reality, pangasius is Vietnamese river catfish ad a dirtier fish would be difficult to find on sale, yet the supermarkets are quite happy to stock it. Please don't tell me, that was through customer demand.
I rarely buy any fish or meat from a supermarket because the "fishmongers" and "butchers" employed by them are anything but. Try asking a supermarket butcher for a bone-in shoulder of pork, you won't get it, simply because "head office don't supply it". Now try and find a proper butcher who can supply a joint from a traditional breed like Gloucester Old Spot and follow and I gurantee you really will "taste the difference".
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cod'ead wrote:Well it's obvious that Tesco et al have got you well & truly hooked.
I'm currently operating a franchise, supplying frozen fish meat & poultry and speciality dishes, direct to the door. I have little problem selling ribeye steak at £33 per kilo because when anyone who knows what real steak should look like, they immediately appreciate the difference.
Similarly, I sell salmon fillet at £25 per kilo and have never received a single complaint, in fact it's my single best selling product
It is all very well and good championing this sort of thing however you have to take into the account cost. Not everybody can afford to pay £25 per kilo for salmon. I work on the counters at a supermarket (I would never dream of calling myself a fishmonger, my "training" was to spend an afternoon with my colleague so that I could cover on there when needed), but we get people complaining about the price of cod loin which is £19 a kilo, they would have a heart attack if you tried to charge them £25. Yes it might taste better, you might get better knowledge from the staff at a proper fishmongers (I won't say service because supermarket staff can deliever top service within their remit, it isn't our fault we aren't given the training) but what's the point in that if you cannot afford the product?
Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece ---------------------------------------------------------- Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork ---------------------------------------------------------- JerryChicken - The Blog ----------------------------------------------------------
Joined: Feb 27 2002 Posts: 18060 Location: On the road
cod'ead wrote:Well it's obvious that Tesco et al have got you well & truly hooked.
I'm currently operating a franchise, supplying frozen fish meat & poultry and speciality dishes, direct to the door. I have little problem selling ribeye steak at £33 per kilo because when anyone who knows what real steak should look like, they immediately appreciate the difference. Our ribeye, sirloin and fillet comes from a grass-fed, Somerset herd and is hung for 28 days before butchering. Sainsbury's once embarked on a great advertising campaign, shouting that their beef was 21 day matured. It wasn't a great success because they'd already convinced their customers that beef should be red in colour and not chestnut bordering on mahogany. Even my local butcher (a man who knows the name of the beast the cut came from), no longer puts his best cuts in the window, simply because many of his customers have been similarly "conditioned". Many beef joints sold in supermarkets are topside or silverside, both joints that should only really be pot-roasted because they don't have the natural fat to keep them moist. Look at the cooking instructions and they'll tell you nothing about slow or pot-roasting.
Similarly, I sell salmon fillet at £25 per kilo and have never received a single complaint, in fact it's my single best selling product. The difference between my North Atlantic, wild-caught salmon is streets away from the farmed salmon on sale in any supermarket. Next time you visit a supermarket's fishmonger slab, take a close look at the salmon. They keep the skin on to avoid you seeing the layer of fat between the skin and flesh, similarly those white lines that branch from the centre are also fat. Wild salmon is all muscle. I gave a woman a salmon fillet this afternoon, free, gratis and for nothing. She told me she only bought salmon tail fillet because it was less "oily" than the loins. I am convinced I'll have no problem selling her a 2 kilo box next time I visit.
I boast that "If I wouldn't eat it, you won't find it on my van". I wouldn't carry any cod during December because I wasn't happy with the quality. I refuse to ever carry pangasius at all. If you're wondering what pangasius is, you may find it listed as "cobbler" or "Basa". In reality, pangasius is Vietnamese river catfish ad a dirtier fish would be difficult to find on sale, yet the supermarkets are quite happy to stock it. Please don't tell me, that was through customer demand.
I rarely buy any fish or meat from a supermarket because the "fishmongers" and "butchers" employed by them are anything but. Try asking a supermarket butcher for a bone-in shoulder of pork, you won't get it, simply because "head office don't supply it". Now try and find a proper butcher who can supply a joint from a traditional breed like Gloucester Old Spot and follow and I gurantee you really will "taste the difference".
I am sure the quality differences are evident to all, the problem is - and the point I am trying to make - is the difference is sufficiently important enough for most to make the effort to seek it out.
If I want something good I will go to Lishman's but the enhanced experience of the food isn't worth an hour round trip every week to get it. For the vast majority of people even a 5 minute trip can't be justified. The chicken I get from the supermarket is more than adequate to fill me fijitas would a superior chicken costing double the price really make that much of a difference to my curry?
cod'ead wrote:Well it's obvious that Tesco et al have got you well & truly hooked.
I'm currently operating a franchise, supplying frozen fish meat & poultry and speciality dishes, direct to the door. I have little problem selling ribeye steak at £33 per kilo because when anyone who knows what real steak should look like, they immediately appreciate the difference. Our ribeye, sirloin and fillet comes from a grass-fed, Somerset herd and is hung for 28 days before butchering. Sainsbury's once embarked on a great advertising campaign, shouting that their beef was 21 day matured. It wasn't a great success because they'd already convinced their customers that beef should be red in colour and not chestnut bordering on mahogany. Even my local butcher (a man who knows the name of the beast the cut came from), no longer puts his best cuts in the window, simply because many of his customers have been similarly "conditioned". Many beef joints sold in supermarkets are topside or silverside, both joints that should only really be pot-roasted because they don't have the natural fat to keep them moist. Look at the cooking instructions and they'll tell you nothing about slow or pot-roasting.
Similarly, I sell salmon fillet at £25 per kilo and have never received a single complaint, in fact it's my single best selling product. The difference between my North Atlantic, wild-caught salmon is streets away from the farmed salmon on sale in any supermarket. Next time you visit a supermarket's fishmonger slab, take a close look at the salmon. They keep the skin on to avoid you seeing the layer of fat between the skin and flesh, similarly those white lines that branch from the centre are also fat. Wild salmon is all muscle. I gave a woman a salmon fillet this afternoon, free, gratis and for nothing. She told me she only bought salmon tail fillet because it was less "oily" than the loins. I am convinced I'll have no problem selling her a 2 kilo box next time I visit.
I boast that "If I wouldn't eat it, you won't find it on my van". I wouldn't carry any cod during December because I wasn't happy with the quality. I refuse to ever carry pangasius at all. If you're wondering what pangasius is, you may find it listed as "cobbler" or "Basa". In reality, pangasius is Vietnamese river catfish ad a dirtier fish would be difficult to find on sale, yet the supermarkets are quite happy to stock it. Please don't tell me, that was through customer demand.
I rarely buy any fish or meat from a supermarket because the "fishmongers" and "butchers" employed by them are anything but. Try asking a supermarket butcher for a bone-in shoulder of pork, you won't get it, simply because "head office don't supply it". Now try and find a proper butcher who can supply a joint from a traditional breed like Gloucester Old Spot and follow and I gurantee you really will "taste the difference".
I am sure the quality differences are evident to all, the problem is - and the point I am trying to make - is the difference is sufficiently important enough for most to make the effort to seek it out.
If I want something good I will go to Lishman's but the enhanced experience of the food isn't worth an hour round trip every week to get it. For the vast majority of people even a 5 minute trip can't be justified. The chicken I get from the supermarket is more than adequate to fill me fijitas would a superior chicken costing double the price really make that much of a difference to my curry?
Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.
Joined: Feb 27 2002 Posts: 18060 Location: On the road
Mintball wrote:When there are no butchers in a town other than a Tesco or a Sainsbury's, then there is no choice.
There is a reason that phrases and words such as 'Tescopoly' and 'Tesco Town' and 'trolley town' have entered the lexicon – because there are places in the UK that, for instance, have three different-sized Tescos, and that's it. I didn't invent or imagine this situation. And that is not a choice.
Indeed, in a post I made earlier, I explained that, when we first moved into the area we're in, the local street was 3/4 derelict and it simply was not possible to do the weekly shop there. The alternative was therefore one of the myriad Sainsbury's or Tescos that had sprouted up within a 20-minute walk in various directions, or to undertake a bus journey further away to a market somewhere (one of which option was destroyed by stalls being driven out by a landlord hiking rents massively because they could get franchises in instead).
I do not get what part of that is difficult to understand.
That situation has only changed in the last nine years, with the revival of the street, including (but not limited to) a Saturday farmers' market (okay, technical definition, apparently, is a 'fine food market'). And since the businesses that have opened on the street in the last few years seem to be sticking around, they are presumably doing okay. Which also suggests that your assertion that there is no demand for butchers etc is, at best, flawed.
One of the shops that has opened is a fishmonger. This is a young business, run by a team of young people, and it's the particular one I was referring to earlier, when I said that they were changing traditional patterns of opening hours in order to better serve people who work conventional hours and may pop in in the evening on the way home.
They'll prep your fish as much as you need; they'll suggest things to do with it. They even organise cookery/skills classes if you want (something various butchers I'm aware of are also doing).
And let's be quite clear: the demise of high street butchers, replaced by in-store 'butchers', has seen a major deskilling. As Blythman illustrated in the book Coddy linked to, a countrywide experiment, very, very few so-called butcher's counters in supermarkets have staff who know much about cuts of meat or can prepare them. The same applies to fishmongers.
And the whole thing with the burgers with horse and pig in them is illustrative of an issue about the mass production of food – and the mass retailing of it, with the concomitant demand for ever cheaper prices.
Now horse and pig in a 'beef' burger may not actually kill anyone, but that's not the point.
I completely agree regarding the quality/service etc of the independents the problem is their customers didn't value their offering sufficiently to keep them in business. Don't blame the supermarkets if other businesses fail to provide a business model that is attractive to their customers. If you take Otley there is Waitrose, Booths and Sainsbury in a small market town yet Lishman's an independent butcher who charges the earth thrives? It is like Blockbuster/HMV their model is outdated don't blame Amazon/Love film Netflicks for abject management at the company's that have failed.
Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.
Sal Paradise wrote:I am sure the quality differences are evident to all, the problem is - and the point I am trying to make - is the difference is sufficiently important enough for most to make the effort to seek it out.
If I want something good I will go to Lishman's but the enhanced experience of the food isn't worth an hour round trip every week to get it. For the vast majority of people even a 5 minute trip can't be justified. The chicken I get from the supermarket is more than adequate to fill me fijitas would a superior chicken costing double the price really make that much of a difference to my curry?
I think you've put your finger on it there. The public in general is happy to watch food porn on telly but the majority don't cook and don't actually care what rubbish they eat, providing it's cheap and easy. I sometimes wonder why people pay vast sums for palatial kitchens when they only need a two-burner and a microwave to heat-up the sort of stuff with which the supermarket aisles are filled.
Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice. Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.
Last edited by El Barbudo on Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Queens Hotel on City Square in Leeds now in administration (once the most prestigious hotel in the city)...
Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece ---------------------------------------------------------- Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork ---------------------------------------------------------- JerryChicken - The Blog ----------------------------------------------------------
Sal Paradise wrote:I completely agree regarding the quality/service etc of the independents the problem is their customers didn't value their offering sufficiently to keep them in business. Don't blame the supermarkets if other businesses fail to provide a business model that is attractive to their customers. If you take Otley there is Waitrose, Booths and Sainsbury in a small market town yet Lishman's an independent butcher who charges the earth thrives? It is like Blockbuster/HMV their model is outdated don't blame Amazon/Love film Netflicks for abject management at the company's that have failed.
Otley is an interesting example of a small market town which has a twice weekly (???) thriving fresh produce market, supports a once a month farmers market and other than the three supermarkets you mention plus Superdrug, has no other major retail representation on its main street - sure it has plenty of charity shops (which are pretty good quality actually) but it also has its fair share of butchers and especially individual, independant bakers.
Free parking all day every day is its master stroke of genius and it attracts enough shoppers to keep itself busy both at the lower end and the top notch (award winning pork butchers) end of the market.
Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece ---------------------------------------------------------- Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork ---------------------------------------------------------- JerryChicken - The Blog ----------------------------------------------------------
JerryChicken wrote:The Queens Hotel on City Square in Leeds now in administration (once the most prestigious hotel in the city)...
That is definitely a case of a business not keeping up with the competition, Malmaison and The Raddison are both far superior hotels and cost the same to stay in, Queens had it's hey day but it hasn't been in the top 10 in Leeds for quite some time, I can't imagine it will actually close, one of the chains may see an opportunity to buy it on the cheap. It's biggest problem is what used to be it's biggest asset, location, it's probably one of the noisiest "premier" Hotels I've ever stayed in, being able to hear station announcements at 6am on a Sunday and the buses rumbling past until early hours isn't what people want now.
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