Post subject: Re: Thou shalt not protest in London
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:16 pm
Son of Les
International Board Member
Joined: Apr 27 2003 Posts: 8633
Ferocious Aardvark wrote:I agree that governments have an appalling record of sneaking in what turns out to be permanent legislation by the back door; also for using legislation for spurious purposes for which it was plainly never intended.
But there are in the case of the Olympics conflicting issues. The actual event itself is a forum for the world's ultimate athelets to compete, and a chance for lesser mortals to watch. That fundamentally is it. Most of these athletes devote their lives to excellence in their chosen event. If the athletes want to go and compete, and I, or anyone, wants to go and watch, why should I or they be impeded, or have the day ruined, by protesters who have no issue with the Olympics per se, no issue with me, and no issue with the athletes, but issues with government policy?
Of course, the reason such events are chosen is because of the media attention any disruption would attract. But the problem to me is that in some cases (depending on the nature, venue and likely course of a 'protest') it is dangerously close to becoming more akin to blackmail: "change your policies on X, otherwise we will ruin your Y".
The second issue is that the bigger the protest, the greater the likelihood of it, or parts of it, being commandeered by criminal elements, who take advantage of the stretching of police resources and the weight of numbers to engage in pure criminality.
I entirely support the democratic right to peaceful protest, but if a protest goes far beyond being a passive event, and is additionally an active event which does not only protest, but chooses a method an/or a place of protesting that goes further, and also seriously impinges on the rights of others to a very significant degree, should be susceptible to some form of control.
There cannot be a universal right to do whatever you want, wherever you want to do it, as long as you're carrying a protest banner.
Just which events are happening on Trafalgar Square and Parliament Square? If you're concerned about people travelling from those sites to other parts of London, why isn't it being proposed that the whole of London is covered by this ban? Surely that would make more sense? If I can disrupt activities in London by campaigning on Trafalgar Square, I'm damn sure I can do the same by campainging at Whitehall, or Oxford Street, Pall Mall, or many other areas of London?
There can be no reasonable justification for the over pampering of people who - at the end of the day - contribute nothing to the country other than their ability to run, throw, row or whatever over the trampling of the right to free speech.
God is nothing more than an imaginary friend for grown ups.
Post subject: Re: Thou shalt not protest in London
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:57 pm
El Barbudo
In The Arms of 13 Angels
Joined: Feb 26 2002 Posts: 14522 Location: Online
Scooter Nik wrote:...There can be no reasonable justification for the over pampering of people who - at the end of the day - contribute nothing to the country other than their ability to run, throw, row or whatever over the trampling of the right to free speech.
Steady on old chap, I haven't heard any athletes demanding any of these measures, indeed I'd guess that many/some won't like the measures any more than I do.
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Post subject: Re: Thou shalt not protest in London
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:10 pm
Ferocious Aardvark
International Chairman
Joined: Feb 17 2002 Posts: 28357 Location: MACS0647-JD
Scooter Nik wrote:Just which events are happening on Trafalgar Square and Parliament Square? If you're concerned about people travelling from those sites to other parts of London, why isn't it being proposed that the whole of London is covered by this ban? Surely that would make more sense? If I can disrupt activities in London by campaigning on Trafalgar Square, I'm damn sure I can do the same by campainging at Whitehall, or Oxford Street, Pall Mall, or many other areas of London?
Calm down old bean, think of your blood pressure.
First, don't ask dumb questions. As I presume you know, the byelaws are the Trafalgar Square byelaws and the Parliament Square byelaws. Therefore they deal specifically with those sites and those sites only. Is that so strange?
Second, why would you, or anyone, wanting to disrupt Whitehall, need to travel "from those sites"? Indeed, if a protester was intending to target Whitehall, it would seem a bit dotty to not go, er, straight to Whitehall?
Quote:There can be no reasonable justification for the over pampering of people who - at the end of the day - contribute nothing to the country other than their ability to run, throw, row or whatever over the trampling of the right to free speech.
Hang on, you asked "Just which events are happening on Trafalgar Square and Parliament Square? [/quote]. None, obviously (well, not sure of the Marathon route tbf) so what connection is there between those places and any athlete?
Finally, you wrongly assume an overarching and unfettered right to free speech, yet must know that this is both naive and unworkable. You may choose to make a protest, but such rights as you have to protest do not trump the rights of the rest of the population who choose not to join your protest. And, for all you know, may disagree with your protest, or even may disagree with the reason for your protest. You should not forget that, but you seem to ignore it.
The issue of authorities potentially misusing the powers they rightly have to strike a fair balance is real, and serious, and such powers can easily be abused; discussions on that dilemma are merited, and could go on all year. but the fact that getting the balance right may be very difficult does not mean that no effort should be made, and it most certainly does not mean that you either have, or should have an absolute and unfettered right to "protest", whenever, wherever, and however you choose.
More specifically, I would argue that I have a right to peacably view and enjoy the Olympic games, and that the athletes (who you ludicrously describe as "pampered" ) have a right to go about their lawful business - especially as guests in this country. You have lost any sense of balance and proportion, clearly, but all I see in your comment is a straw man. If you want to advance some actual "trampling on free speech" that is going on, you'd need to actually say what you're talking about.
As for the Olympics "contributing nothing" to either the country or to the economy, you can't seriously think that, so I won't comment.
Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total
Post subject: Re: Thou shalt not protest in London
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:14 pm
McLaren_Field
International Chairman
Joined: Feb 26 2002 Posts: 32466 Location: Leeds
Actually, I quite like the idea of the Olympics taking place in central London, the throwing disciplines chucking stuff up The Mall towards Bettys House for instance, running lots of times around Trafalgar Square, swimming events in The Serpentine and just so they don't feel left out, The Marathon could be run inside a proper stadium for a change, White City dog track for instance.
Just think how much money we could have saved and how impressed Johnny Foreigner would be chucking javelins at the queen.
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Post subject: Re: Thou shalt not protest in London
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:29 pm
cod'ead
International Chairman
Joined: May 25 2002 Posts: 37704 Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
McLaren_Field wrote:Actually, I quite like the idea of the Olympics taking place in central London, the throwing disciplines chucking stuff up The Mall towards Bettys House for instance, running lots of times around Trafalgar Square, swimming events in The Serpentine and just so they don't feel left out, The Marathon could be run inside a proper stadium for a change, White City dog track for instance.
Just think how much money we could have saved and how impressed Johnny Foreigner would be chucking javelins at the queen.
Bugger running the marathon over a set distance. It should be a "fagging-out" race like we used to have at school. They just run round and round 'til they drop, last one standing wins.
The javelin could be replaced with throwing traffic signs, swap the discus for a dustbin lid. In fact we could become world champs at reealio, eggetty-budge, pirates and British Bulldog
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Post subject: Re: Thou shalt not protest in London
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:38 pm
El Barbudo
In The Arms of 13 Angels
Joined: Feb 26 2002 Posts: 14522 Location: Online
McLaren_Field wrote:Actually, I quite like the idea of the Olympics taking place in central London, the throwing disciplines chucking stuff up The Mall towards Bettys House for instance, running lots of times around Trafalgar Square, swimming events in The Serpentine and just so they don't feel left out, The Marathon could be run inside a proper stadium for a change, White City dog track for instance.
Just think how much money we could have saved and how impressed Johnny Foreigner would be chucking javelins at the queen.
The beach volleyball will take place on Horseguards Parade. I jest not.
Beach volleyball FFS ! Soft porn for the PM, I reckon. Still, I s'pose it keeps him away from tinkering with stuff he knows nowt about.
Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice. Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.
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) have a right to go about their lawful business - especially as guests in this country. You have lost any sense of balance and proportion, clearly, but all I see in your comment is a straw man. If you want to advance some actual "trampling on free speech" that is going on, you'd need to actually say what you're talking about.
