Well that escalated quickly.

They must have had some previous as its been confirmed that both men were known to security services but had been categorised as not posing an immediate risk.

The typo doesn't change the meaning, dearie.

I'm still waiting for Rooster to provide evidence a rise in 'similar' attacks - ie violent ones, motivated by jihadism.

Every part of the country experiences violent crime - and London is no different. We have/have had a specific problem here with gang-related crime, some of it with fatal consequences for the entirely innocent. I temper my comment with the "have had" option because reports suggest that this is down currently, and indeed, reports of gang-related violence are themselves down.

Personally, I think that there are big problems within elements of some communities that boil down to integration. I've said this quite specifically inaccurate of blogs, in relation to rape/abuse. But equally, those issues are not remotely limited to immigrant or new communities. And while - again personally - I distrust most religion and deeply dislike all fundamentalisms, the idea that all of any Muslims are jihadists is as much errant nonsense as it would be to state that all Christians are homophobes, and it does nothing to tackle the genuine issue of radicalisation - or brainwashing, which is what we really mean.

There seem to be issues particularly surrounding young males who are first/second generation British. When I was in Germany recently, I was talking with a young German man of Turkish origin, who, while entirely Westernised, feels that, when he visits Turkey, he is not treated as a Tuek, but that he not treated as a German in Germany.there you have a big issue.

Add to that such things as unemployment, particularly among young people - see the rioting in Sweden at present and even here a couple of summers since - and you start to see toxic combinations of things.

The Internet increases the difficulties in dealing with these, because even if you were somehow to ensure that every aa imam in the UK for instance, was 'safe', then you still cannot ensure that individuals and informal groups cannot access radicalising, jihadist materials from abroad.

We have to beware of going down any Nazi-like route of collective punishment. We equally have to remember that those calling for vigilante 'justice' etc do so in direct contravention of our own long-held laws and freedoms from Magna Carta on. To do so, iin effect, would be to give in to any jihadist aims. Ad it one of those supreme ironies that some of those screaming the greatest at present show themselves to be little different from the very sort of people that they direct their venom against.

DaveO wrote:Rubbish. It just isn't. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22275280 Some areas are. I drove to South Shields and Sunderland today and passed some of the nicest places you could wish for, but also saw some places I would'nt send my mother in law to. All in a 150 mile drive. On balance, Britain is a safe, decent place to live but lets not kid ourselves that there are not places which are appalling.

DaveO wrote:Rubbish. It just isn't. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22275280 Some areas are. I drove to South Shields and Sunderland today and passed some of the nicest places you could wish for, but also saw some places I would'nt send my mother in law to. All in a 150 mile drive. On balance, Britain is a safe, decent place to live but lets not kid ourselves that there are not places which are appalling.

Our country is a 'horrible hellhole', but you think it could be improved by deporting anyone unwilling to stand up in public and read a government-approved statement professing their unquestioning loyalty to the place?

Not a typo in sight sweetie

Named as Drummer Lee Rigby, 25 years old and the father of a two year old child. RIP young man.

But it's always been the case - this isn't new or governed by the single factor of immigration or migration.

Just one example: Borough was, at the end of the 19the century, a police no-go area. It's doubtful that it was polite society. But now, it's incredibly trendy and with a far lower population than was estimated then.

I live in Haggerston in Hackney and have done for 18 years this July. It's changed out of Ll recognition. Indeed, the Kingsland Estate, at one end of 'my' road was apparently considered one of the very worst in the UK. It's been run-down as long as I've known it, but hasn't been that bad, and is now being rebuilt to house an ncaingly well-to-do, rather trendy population.

In the 1960s, the Krays and other gangs ran up to this area.

We need to be careful in being too rosy-tinted about the past.

Be'ave yourself.

You've been amongst them Frenchies too long.

Didn't the Nazis go down the route of swearing allegiance etc? Along with many other dictatorial, totalitarian regimes. Indeed, isn't that one of the hallmarks of such?