Spot on. And Bury has loads of parking at reasonable prices (though many locals still fondly recall the days of free town centre parking - not actually that long ago!).

The market continues to thrive and has developed further in recent years with several cafes popping up and creating a plaza area with plenty of outdoor seating. It's not very exotic but it's pleasant, and with outdoor heaters it's year round.

The 2 main shopping areas, the 2-3 retail parks, the supermarkets, the bars, cafes and restaurants, the local schools and colleges, the local sports centre, the East Lancs Railway - everything is in a relatively small area and within easy walking distance, with the Metrolink and bus station also in the town centre, and all have ample parking.

Anyone who still naively clings to the idea that supermarkets are interested in offering choice and value to customers could do worae than read Joana Blythman's book Shopped: The Shocking Power Of British Supermarkets

Anyone who still naively clings to the idea that supermarkets are interested in offering choice and value to customers could do worae than read Joana Blythman's book Shopped: The Shocking Power Of British Supermarkets

Parking in Leeds City Centre, particularly shoppers parking was an issue that was being discussed on local radio just yesterday by a representative of independant retaillers in the city who made the point that there is no such thing as "casual shopping" in the city centre these days, and as a kid in the 1960s who spent every bloody saturday afternoon being dragged around and around the city centre by his mother I knew exactly what the spokesman meant.

The point being made was that you only went into the centre if you absolutely needed something that you couldn't get elsewhere and you only went for that specific item because the cost of parking your car and more importantly the cost of being fined if you overstay your welcome is extortionate - the spokesman made a very good point in that we have a council who publically promise a "vibrant" city centre and boast of a "wonderful" collection of retaillers, and then do their best to drive away car drivers by employing street wardens who issue disproportionate penalties if you stay for five minutes too long in a parking bay, what they were calling for was a system of fair charging for exceeding time limits in on-street and pre-pay car parks, possibly just double what you should have paid rather than ten or twenty times - but of course that will never happen.

sally cinnamon wrote:However consumers prefer this "one shop sells all" model (at the moment) ... In many cases, consumers have little choice in the matter, since local shops were destroyed years ago – so in many cases, younger consumers in particular have never had much of an alternative to the big shops/chains. I just recently did an interview with a butcher on my nearest shopping street – he's been there for 53 years and the last there from a completely different era. He remembers the days when there were eight butchers, three (proper) bakers and at least three wet fish shops/stalls. Plus a small Tesco. The demise started when Tesco began opening the really big stores. Before that, there'd been a place for everyone. Henry's story bears out what other people have told me over the years. When we moved into the area 17 years ago, the street was 3/4 derelict and there was no meaningful choice for shopping. You went to one of the many Tescos scattered around – or one of the many Sainsbury's scattered around; both of which have continued to spread. That's not choice. The choice has only increased in the last nine years since the area started trendifying and a Saturday market started on the street, while a number of cafes and bars and independent shops opened. Now, I have a genuine choice. I can shop up there – and not just on a Saturday – or I can go to one of the dozens of Tescos or Sainsbury's. Now, as a downside, rents are rising insanely. Parking has been raised an an issue for many streets – not only do councils charge to park, supermarkets can get away with building huge carparks and offering free parking; and there needs to be rent control (commercial and residential). And see the book that Coddy suggets – it's good. As is the Charles Fishman I've mentioned already.

sally cinnamon wrote:However consumers prefer this "one shop sells all" model (at the moment) ... In many cases, consumers have little choice in the matter, since local shops were destroyed years ago – so in many cases, younger consumers in particular have never had much of an alternative to the big shops/chains. I just recently did an interview with a butcher on my nearest shopping street – he's been there for 53 years and the last there from a completely different era. He remembers the days when there were eight butchers, three (proper) bakers and at least three wet fish shops/stalls. Plus a small Tesco. The demise started when Tesco began opening the really big stores. Before that, there'd been a place for everyone. Henry's story bears out what other people have told me over the years. When we moved into the area 17 years ago, the street was 3/4 derelict and there was no meaningful choice for shopping. You went to one of the many Tescos scattered around – or one of the many Sainsbury's scattered around; both of which have continued to spread. That's not choice. The choice has only increased in the last nine years since the area started trendifying and a Saturday market started on the street, while a number of cafes and bars and independent shops opened. Now, I have a genuine choice. I can shop up there – and not just on a Saturday – or I can go to one of the dozens of Tescos or Sainsbury's. Now, as a downside, rents are rising insanely. Parking has been raised an an issue for many streets – not only do councils charge to park, supermarkets can get away with building huge carparks and offering free parking; and there needs to be rent control (commercial and residential). And see the book that Coddy suggets – it's good. As is the Charles Fishman I've mentioned already.

"destoyed" by whom?

The village I was brought up in used to have a News Agent, Green Grocer, General Grocer, Beer/Wine merchant, Butcher, local Bank branch, Bakery, Wet Fish shop all on the main street. It now has a Cafe, a McColl's generic (and overpriced) supermarket, a Physiotherapist, a Hat Shop, a "Boutique" that sells all manner of expensive rubbish that nobody wants to buy and not a lot else. The Butcher has remained, he's blooy expensive but he's also VERY good.

It's no surprise to me (and probably nobody else either) that the people who owned the plethora of shops in the village all cashed in on the property values in the 90's and have since (with one exception I know of) shuffled off this mortal coil. People want an easy life, even in their careers, I can't see anyone getting up at 4am to go to the market to buy produce to then sell in their own shop from 8am to 7pm (in fact, I wouldn't even know where the nearest wholesalers is now, and that was thanks to a Labour government in Hull, so people can't start blaming the Tories as they usually do).

Is any of that the fault of Tesco/Wal Mart/Sainsbury et al?

What also intrigues me is a local "Farm Shop" close to where I live now sells all manner of stuff at a serious mark up, the place is rammed most afternoons and it just isn't worth going at a weekend, about 5% of the produce is actually locally produced, the rest is bought in, some of it from Waitrose/Ocado (we bought some stuff the other week that had been carefully re-wrapped in the "**** Farm Shop" packaging, but they hadn't removed the inside wrapping with the famous green Waitrose label on it), so people will obviously pay for "quality", when I was in Acton their was an "artisan" bread shop knocking out loaves at £4 to £7 each, yes it was better than sliced white, but it wasn't that good.

The whole retail sector is going to implode and find a new base level, unfortunately there are going to be many thousands of casualties (jobs wise) along the way.

A supermarket only needs to take 30% of the trade and the small independents won't be able to afford to continue trading.
Hence, they may have "earned" 30% of the trade but the other 70% is gained despite people wanting to shop elsewhere.
Many people are happy to go along with whatever the supermarkets say is "choice" but, for me, choice is not an aisle full of differently-labelled bottles of water or the same spuds in larger or smaller bags or racks and racks of Chorleywood process bread.
I'd far rather have a butcher who can tell me the exact provenance of the meat he sells, rather than a supermarket who buy in such quantity that they can't keep track of what species is in their burgers.

it's time you changed the record, it really is boring.

Is my argument incorrect?
Or are you bored by your inability to refute it?

As the butcher I talked to, who had survived, said, it was when the supermarkets started expanding into much bigger stores. When there had been a small Tesco (in the days when Jack Cohen was still alive), everything had coexisted.

The street was 3/4 dead 17 and a half years ago when we first got to know it, and apparently had been for some time.



This is interesting. There are young businesses that I'm seeing where people clearly are putting the hours in – and also where they're adjusting to a more Continental model of independent retail to cater to modern consumers more: hours the shop is open is an example – opening later in the morning but then staying open later in the day.

There is development in artisanal food – and the retail of such foods – and a lot of that is being driven by young people.

Where you buy wholesale is a a different matter: everything has been so centralised over the last 20-30 years, with most traditional wholesale markets moved out of city centres to the outside. I don't think that any government for 30-plus years has had a policy of supporting anything other than big business, and that includes the food sector.



As I've mentioned before, Charles Fishman's The Wal-Mart Effect illustrates how the constant drive to push prices down further and then further again reduces quality and loses jobs. Supermarkets can have a negative impact on areas, and this is one way – as El Barbudo notes.

I haven't quoted it, but you also make a point about the quality butcher costing more. I think it's interesting that, generally, people in the UK spend 10% less of their income on food than anywhere else in Europe (figure via Joanna Blythman), yet you'll hear constant complaints that food is too expensive.

I think that there are a number of issues here – one being the very much higher costs of housing in the UK than elsewhere in Europe – but also perhaps a general sense of food as being something that we don't value any more than fuel. Or perhaps it's partly that a lot of what is bought widely is expensive if you factor in its poor quality.

And there's also the point that there's been a very effective con in terms of convincing people that 'convenience' food is cheap, when it's far from it. Just one simple example: small tin of sliced carrot costs 57p in a general store/supermarket, with salt and sugar added. Two carrots – bought in an organic shop, so they're 'premium' – cost 30p and there's far more of them than what's in the tin. Takes 90 second to peel and slice (and I'm not cheffy fast) and then 10 minutes in a pan.

I couldn't agree more, was in Tesco yesterday and was looking at Cauliflower Cheese and Cottage Pie in their "finest" selection, total cost was a little over £6.

Now, I admit, at the moment I am very "time rich" so I decided to cook it myself instead (and I understand that not everyone has a lot of time to plan or make meals). I bought mince, caluiflower, cheese, milk, potatoe and already had plain flower and beef stock in, I made the same meal (probably better quality/flavour) for about half that price.

I dislike many things about supermarkets, the fact that everything seems to have way too much packaging, the fact you can't seem to buy small quantities of anything unless it's loose fruit/veg (on rare occasions you can buy stuff from the "specialist" counters in singles or twos). But I don't blame the supermarkets, they are responding to demand (it wasn't selling they wouldn't give it shelf space).

People have very wistful memories of how good it used to be "back in the day", but they forget a few key things, the main one being that, in most households, Mum didn't work, or if she did, she worked part time, so a two hour trek to the village for shopping every couple of days was no big problem, shops openend at 8 and closed at 5, you had your milk delivered every day (or every other day), the "veg van" came to you once a week (if you were somewhere on the round), that just isn't the society we live in anymore.

People (by and large) crave posessions and believe they acquire status from accumulating them, I would wager at least 50% of the people posting on here live in a two car household, with more than one TV, with a games console, broadband, one (if not more) weeks holiday a year £2k of debt at any given time (credit cards etc.) a house that, in reality, is too big for what they really need, probably with negative equity because they borrowed too much and paid too much in "the boom", possibly sat on an "interest only" mortgage that they can barely afford - or should I just call it "consumerism", and that wasn't created by anyone but those who subscribe to the idealogy.

We can, and do, point the finger of blame in various directions, when really "modern society" (I wont call us civilisation as I see evidence daily that many are far from civilised) needs to take a long, hard and brutally honest look in the mirror and ask "is this really what I want out of life, or am I just living the life that everyone else expects me to live".

But, unfortunately, we live in a time where responsibility isn't a personal value, it's always someone else's fault.